Most Inspiring Proven Hybrid ?

yankeetexan - your question has several problems

1. It is very broad - if you pick a single boat (preferably displacement speed) you can calculate quite accurately the power needed at different speeds in calm water. but to have soem kind of general numbers to follow is not so easy - too many variables.

2. Thrust hour is not unit of energy. Thrust is resolved from P=FV, aka F=P/V
AS you can see from the formula - the thrust alone has little to with power or energy.

Now if we agree that its kWh that counts its pretty easy to check the fuel efficiency of modern diesel at different loads. Lets just pick 250g/kwh as a benchmark number. Its not too far from reality as far as I know.

then just check how much does 1kwh of deep discharge batteries weigh. Then to be realistic really you should check how much does 2kw of lead acid weigh as close to 100% discharge is far from realistic where as diesel tank can be used near (empty) every time if so wanted.


You will see that good ol hydrocarbons are a hard addiction to get rid off. Its just so damn compact and handy way of storing energy.

 

http://www.nannidiesel.com/images/stories/press/2010/37_YachtingClassique-201012.jpg

 

not convinced either way...yet

Hey thanks kerosene,
nannienergy...I saw your info on the other thread and on your website...really interesting!

I agree, fossil fuels are hard/impossible to beat in most cases. They are millions of years of energy storage that we can take out in a few seconds. If I [had] to choose one thing for all applications…I’d choose a fossil fueled IC engine…absolutely!

In my career I have been wrong about the ability of a new technological component arrangement to provide positive benefits beyond the status-quo for certain applications. This may or may not be one of those cases. I am interested in finding out.

Nannienergy I am sure the data on your website is sound. I don’t smell rats when looking at your data; however, it is easy to be skeptical getting positive information from a non-independent source. I know how to make stuff look better or worse (not as well as our Salesmen do though). Those folks selling those HO systems for your car…I smell rats. These diesel electric marine hybrid system companies…I don’t.

1) Yes what I ask it [is] very broad.
I have to say I am new to boat design. I am really looking to understand/educate on how to start calculate this stuff. I have only just begun.

2) Thrust is what comes out of the prop right? Not kW? I guess, like kerosene said, kW depends on the boat speed to get the final useful kW out. I have seen electric trolling motors' performance ratings use thrust, not kW, so I am guessing that is because thrust is a more generic performance parameter.

I know this... kW in * system efficiency = kW out. Storage is useful only in the kW out of the system. For a given kW out, a system that is 10% efficient will have 8 times the storage needed to do the same amount of useful work as an 80% efficient system. System efficiency is key. Batteries suck when comparing to fossil fuels on a higher heating value of energy storage. Also any given system can operate at dramatically different efficiencies across it's range of operation. A hybrid uses a blend of 2 or more systems to optimize efficiency across a wide range of operational inputs and outputs. While one system’s efficiency is bad the other is good and vice versa.

I don’t expect to get complete answers here, ‘Just some insight. I appreciate all the time folks have written to comment on this subject.

 

Thanks YankeeTexan.

 

Yankee,

I am a pretty regular opponent of electric boats on this forum, and as my above posts show I think you can understand why.

To be practical a propulsion system needs a few things. 1) Stored power 2) A way to convert stored power to thrust 3) Cost effective compared to other alternatives 4) Reliability under expected conditions 5) A way to add more stored power quickly and economically.

Current electrical systems in my eyes fail 1, 3, 5 with currently available technology. There are advances being made in all of these systems but they are a long way from being technologically feasable let alone cost effective mostly due to the inability of current battery technology to house the immense energy demands of a power boat underway.

That being said, it currently might just barely be possiblt to design a large all electric sailboat, so long as the owner was willing to accept severe limitations on the use of electricity for propulsion needs. These demands would require a sailboat to do almost everything under sail power, including creating electrical power from a turning prop. It would be unwieldy, and highly limiting, but if someone chose it just might work.

Conversly a large powerboat (say over 50') that was willing to limit itself to no longer than 1-2 hours at displacement speeds (less than 8-10kn) and only hae 3-4 hours of run time a week, might be able to design such a system. However anything more than this limited use would be impossible simply due to the energy density (or lack thereof) of current battery technology. Even using fuel cells and more exotic storage technology the numbers aren't much better, and none of these systems have been proven to work under Marine conditions.

 

You are right Stumble. I have to say though that the lure of running silent and smokeless for a little while and maybe even eventually for a little less money, is a powerful motivator to see if the technology can be worked out. I always think I can figure out stuff others cant. Most of the time I cant...some of the time I have been able to. I am not one to waste much money or energy based on esoteric ideals. It [seems] like some of the recent developments like nannienergy's have some promise.

Good luck to them and we'll see...I am behind them all the way...

...until then I think my boat is going to have 1 or 2 of those Yamaha 9.9 hi thrust outboards...at least for starters. Plenty of things to work out on building the boat I want anyways...first of all figuring out what I really want/need/can afford. I have a long ways to go. I have only just begun.

'Have a good 'un y'all...

 

And then there is the one thing that will stop an electric system in its tracks: Lightning.

http://www.boattest.com/Resources/view_news.aspx?NewsID=3460

 

A technical note: fuel cells do not store energy. Rather they generate electricity by a catalytic reaction. The fuel cells being developed for automobiles and similar applications use hydrogen and oxygen which are combined. Electricity and water result. The oxygen can come form the air but the hydrogen has to be supplied.

 

Right. A fuel cell is a great invention. It's like a very clean, efficient genset.

 

This "little less money" will at present come out as two to 5 times the cost of a conventional setup!
It is not only the much higher purchase price to start with, it is the lifetime cost making all of these systems just not sensible at present.
When we calculate the cost on a kW throughput rate, a hybrid like the Nanni system (which by no means is new), comes out about three times more expensive than a usual IC propulsion. But that only in the best case, it can be worse.

Thanks for that one Nanni !!! It clearly states, that the entire systems rises and falls with the battery capacity! Not really anything new.

Regards
Richard

 

Fuel cells themselves are nice and clean, but the hydrogen has to come from somewhere, and any process for making hydrogen requires energy. The overall efficiency and amount of CO2 produced depends on the process and what is included in the accounting. Other than producing hydrogen by electrolysis using "green" energy, hydrogen production is not 100% green and some methods are not very green at all.

 

They can run on alcohol and other fuels a well. Hydrogen is but one type of fuel cell... the most impractical type for a boat.

You will want one that can crack its own hydrocarbons. Unfortunately, these are also (IIRC) the type that need to run very hot in order to work.

They are a very clean alternative to a generator, even running on propane or alcohol.

 

If a hydrocarbon is cracked, then the carbon in the hydrocarbon has to go somewhere, usually combined with oxygen to form CO2, which then gets dumped in the atmosphere. Also, the energy needed to crack the hydrocarbon has to come from somewhere, and that energy needs to be accounted for.

 

Diesel-->Hydrogen-->fuel cell

Thought you guys might be interested:

Cheap diesel-powered fuel cells http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/26594/ and a diesel fuel cell auxiliary power unit being tested for Abrams tanks http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/06/17/40980-army-testing-fuel-cell-technology-for-abrams-tank/

The DOE here projects fuel cells will be "system cost" competitive with internal combustion in 2015, page 7: http://www.fuelcellseminar.com/media/5499/satyapal_2010_10_19.pdf

 

It absolutely is a big lie on the part of politicians. The only reason any automaker is building EVs, E-REVs, and Hybrids is so they can sell high profit vehicles that CAN”T meet the new C.A.F.E. numbers do to that troublesome little thing called physics. Roughly 1 Volt and 5 V8 powered 4x4 trucks average out to meet the new CAFÉ numbers, that’s the value of these vehicles to the manufactures. I’ve been in the Auto design biz for 30 years, both my father and father in law retired as execs in the auto biz and I personally worked on the Volt based Cadillac concept, I know what’s not said to the public about these cars.