Most Inspiring Proven Hybrid ?

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Questor, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. oceandreams
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    oceandreams Junior Member

    Gentlemen I understand the energy issues and that it takes X amount of energy to do y work.

    I have never stated that it is possible to be self-sufficient on a non-sailboat. I wouldn't even try without regeneration. There are inefficiencies in every system. But the fact of the matter is these boats, at least on passages, create way more energy than they use while under regeneration, it's just like having a several KW gen running. That is when your able to recreate large amounts of fuel.


    In my prior posting I provided a link to my patent question on the yahoo electric boats group, I received an answer from the gentleman who bought the Lagoon written about in the first article. He has also spoken with the owners of the other three. He talks about the issue.....read the thread.


    You say the technology is not currently available or proven, but from your comments you haven't even bothered to look at the links I provided as to what is currently available on the market.

    - Fuel cells: Yes they use hydrogen, oxygen, and a catalyst, (some others use diff tech) been doing that since NASA started using them. Probes millions of miles away running fine. However current technology I can purchase today uses pure hydrogen from your source, and ROOM AIR for the oxygen source. Excess oxygen generated by the hydrolyzer system is vented with flash back protection to the exterior away from the ship. The fuel cell has a 40,000 hour lifetime. Personally I'd find some way to fill some empty O2 containers, at least while dockside, and sell to companies that use them.

    - Storage: Please educate your self on the metal hydride storage containers. They are extremely safe, and LOW pressure, and extremely light weight as compared to say a traditional O2 pressure tank of equivalent size. I think you could safely puncture a filled one with a bullet and not get a catastrophic explosion.- only problem is market demand at this point. No one is making one off the shelf any larger than 900L that I have found. Though they are small for this purpose they can be linked together.
    This small system ( http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/hydrogen_solutions.htm ) for the home consumer electronics market should be out by Christmas, they are safe.

    Yes I would prefer 4 bigger units rather than 10-20 smaller....that will change with time or just finding the right manufacturer. Since when is having a pressurized tank aboard a huge safety issue, don't most boats use propane for cooking?

    http://www.independencegreenyachts.com/fullspecs.html

    1200nm @ 6kts, 600nm @ 8kts. Not quite your spec but a real good range and not even sail powered. Also more likely an architectural decision more than anything. I'm sure the architect can provide you better numbers than I can at this point. Run out of gas drop anchor and relax for a few hours/days. Let the sun refill the tanks. Otherwise pull in to port and either directly refill (when infrastructure is there) or plug in. You can't tell me a consumer especially a weekend warrior wouldn't see value in a boat that will take him where ever he/she wanted to go. Then it sits during the week at the dock, making it's own gas. (no reason you couldn't write a quick app so you could monitor everything via you ipad/phone or droid while at work).

    But I will take you up on your offer on a boat in the 30-40 ft range when I get it worked out.

    Here is a hydrogen powered dinghy:

    http://www.actaenergy.it/invito_genova1.pdf

    Also a marine industry award for the hydrogen generator I was quoting.
    "Acta, the provider of clean energy products and environmental catalysts, is delighted to announce that its EL100 Hydrogen Generator has won the prestigious Qualitec Technology Award 2010 at the international Seatec trade exhibition for boats, yachts and ships. The award recognizes innovation in the nautical sector."

    http://www.actaenergy.it/news.asp??tit=qualitec-technology-award-2010&id=21


    I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but for clarification, nuclear reactors aboard ships and subs do not "create" their own fuel. They are simply just heat engines and do have to be refueled, it just happens a lot further apart. Decay produces heat --> which generates steam --> turns a steam turbine attached either to a generator or the shaft via reduction gear.


    And if the technology was widely available and in use then where would the opportunity be??????????
     
  2. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    You finally got it......

    Now you understand grasshopper. Now go get a diesel, straight shaft to a propeller. KISS

    By the way I have a green boat... Solar power DC electrical for all pumps, communications and lighting, no DC charger, small diesels, solar water heater, and ac only needs 30 amps max on generator sometimes. Solar works for that - not propulsion.
     
  3. oceandreams
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    oceandreams Junior Member

    FYI - Found this paper on hydrogen myths from 2003.
     

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  4. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Are you on correct thread?
     
  5. oceandreams
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    oceandreams Junior Member

    In post #35 I posted a link to a boat, the conversation grew from there.
     
  6. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Ocean I spoke with the designers at Independece Yachts about a year and a half ago, and while their idea is interesting, it fundamentally fails as a concept. The solar panels are not even in the range of what would be required to reasonably recharge the system for a passage. At least at the time the expected time frame was something on the order of weeks from empty to full.

    Of course that may have changed since then, but while that might work for day trip boats it does not really address the issue.
     
  7. oceandreams
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    oceandreams Junior Member

    That's why at this point I would only really look at doing sail boats. The energy captured by the sail is just to great. If you were looking at building a powerboat from the ground up you could design safe high pressure tanks of adequate size into the boat. But that would be just like refilling with diesel. Albeit much cleaner, quieter, and no smell. I would also still use as much solar as possible to generate as much H2 as possible, and cover as much of the house load as possible.
     
  8. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    The ultimate green solar powered boat is the sailboat. The winds come from the heat of the sun on the earth. They provide endless power in large quantities, they do require large appendages sticking out of boat called sails that most powerboats dont like. That is why I believe future is the kitesail. At present technology level, Solarpower is for hot water, and charging house batteries, not propulsion
     
  9. oceandreams
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    oceandreams Junior Member

    Very interesting found this http://www.pacificpowersails.com/ (generator on the kite, but didn't look real stable). How are these controlled? I bought a small trainer kite for kite boarding several years ago and never got it up. (though I never really got a chance with decent winds). Watching kiteboarders I need to ask how these don't end up in the water with a sudden drop in winds?? And how do you relaunch Wouldn't want to submerge an airborne generator.

    How big of one would I need for a 30-42ft cat or mono fiberglass boat (What is the size to weight ratio)? When I was looking at kite boarding I was told because of my size (6'4' 220) I would need at least a 20M kite just for me. How big do these need to be to pull a 8-10K lb boat?? The 20M kite was $2K or $100/M. How much do these run?
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Kites, Hydrogen, windturbines, PV panels, prop shaft generator, all on a Cat below 125.000 US$ ? And all to save energy?

    The HO you can produce with PV panels, installed on a still functional boat of a size you have in mind, is just enough to run the "Kärcher" to wash the dust off of them.

    And you don´t have enough money (or don´t want to spend it) for a boat of the mentioned size, but you have enough to install more on senseless gimmicks, than the entire boat shall cost?
    That does not match.

    Forget it.
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Kites, Hydrogen, windturbines, PV panels, prop shaft generator, all on a Cat below 125.000 US$ ? And all to save energy?

    The HO you can produce with PV panels, installed on a still functional boat of a size you have in mind, is just enough to run the "Kärcher" to wash the dust off of them.

    And you don´t have enough money (or don´t want to spend it) for a boat of the mentioned size, but you have enough to install more on senseless gimmicks, than the entire boat shall cost?
    That does not match.

    Forget it.
     
  12. oceandreams
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    oceandreams Junior Member

    APEX -

    Do you work for big oil or something???????:rolleyes:

    Senseless gimmicks? Just started reading about the kite sails , but what I have gathered the world records (around 50kts) have all been set with these. What's the dollar/min in fuel use for the large shipping boats and tankers? A savings of even $5K-$10K-20K a passage is significant. Winds are/can be higher aloft, makes sense to me.

    If the fuel cell is such a stupid idea then why did the company making the Hydrogen generator share a marine award for it with Volkswagen?

    I've already had discussions on another forum with others who say it's real easy to live off the hook in say the Caribbean off solar and wind with a proper plan - and that is not using regeneration or anything else. (I left the link to the yahoo group where I spoke to the owner of one of the 3 Lagoons above. You can make passage on those boats with ZERO traditional gas because of the regeneration....it's already been done.)

    I'll work out the details thank you. And do you really think I would divulge everything here that I've learned, or every manufacturer I've spoken to?

    Man has been able to accomplish just about anything he has set his mind to. Or do you still believe that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth? People like you said man could never fly, go to the moon, and if you sailed far enough west you'd fall off the edge. Forty years ago a star-trek tri-corder was just fiction. Well my droid phone is about the same size, I can communicate with just about anyone, it can read my voice, tell me where I am, or how fast I'm going. Take pictures and movies, even has a spectrum analyzer. Oh yeah you'll never ever be able to fill up that 10MB hd either right? Hows that 256MB of ram that was more than you needed doing today? And I suppose you still believe that you'll never get more than 720MB onto a polycarbonate disk?

    In the end this may or may not work out for my needs, $20-25K does buy a lot of gas. But then again there is no opportunity in that.

    SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING POSITIVE, OR AT LEAST GENUINELY CONSTRUCTIVE TO SAY.....THEN CLICK "NEXT"!
    AS I READ VARIOUS THREADS ON HERE (FROM LONG BEFORE I JOINED) YOU GO BEYOND THE POINT OF DISCUSSION
    YOUR BELLIGERENT
    YOUR A BULLY

    Respond if you want, either way I'm done wasting my time arguing with you. If you have something positive to say or wish to engage in genuine constructive conversation fine. If your just here to spout off like a parrot then leave me alone. Either way I've spent way too much time on this thread already.
     
  13. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Pacific Sail Works is a relative late comer to kite powered propulsion with as of yet no working products. There are however a manufacturer producing large kite sails for use aboard large fishing vessels and small cargo carriers. While still in the design and R&D phase they have proved promising and it looks like they may actually be able to significantly reduce fuel consumption. Of course the cost for such a system starts at around $1,000,000USD meaning it is no where close to affordable even for mega-yachts.

    At present there are no systems for small vessels, or intentions to build one. However for those in the large boat industry (+175') they do produce sails that can generate between 4 and 32 tonns of tractive force with larger designs in the works.

    http://www.skysails.info/english/

    Ocean,

    If you don't like what we have to say fine. But the problem is you show up makeing outragious claims. Hoping for someone to tell you that your dream of a vessel powered by electricity is easy when in reality all the math says they are impossible at the present time. The reality is that sailboats are the only currently possible way of a vessel generating propulsion from renewable energy sources.
     
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  14. oceandreams
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    oceandreams Junior Member


    1) I have never said I was looking to do this to anything other than a sail boat. The conversation may have grown to other boats but I never said anything other.
    Your correct you can't produce enough energy by solar or wind without regeneration undersail, presently. But as I've said before the Waypoint boat as documented by owners generates more than enough energy during regeneration to cover its electrical usage during passages. As documented they had to turn stuff on to use electricty and not burn up the batteries.

    2)You talk about technology, but from prior posts your not up as to the current sate of the art (as I pointed out before).

    3) Stumble, you discuss like an adult, he acts like a spoiled 14 year old. He can get away with it hidden behind his computer. Try that face to face and eventually someone will tire of it and pop him in the nose.

    4) never made any outrageous claim.... I asked about a patent and/or quoted an article and asked a question referencing boats in the water or articles I've read. And I never said I have a working system , yet. Pretty much every product I've spoken about I provide the link where you could pop out your credit card and purchase. The outrageous claim, in your opinion, was made by someone else. If hydrogen was such a bad idea then why are companies spending millions on research? Why did i see Exxon advertising during NFL games that they are working on a hydrogen generator for your car to produce hydrogen to be use onboard?????? Yeah some research might be more PR, but not the dollars involved. Keep in mind I also live about a 30min drive from the National Renewable Energy Lab, so I may have had a few conversations your not privy to.


    5)And so what if it's not quite there yet. Just means opportunity still lies ahead.

    The two of you don't see it, that's ok.

    Take care
    Either way this is no longer a productive conversation and I'm sure we both have other things to be doing. When I have a working prototype I'll be sure to invite both of your aboard.
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    We are following (and supporting) Skysails for many years now. And the systems are far away from being still in the R&D phase Stumble. There are several merchant ships using them with noticeable succes and savings. Beluga shipping fits out every new vessel with it meanwhile.

    They ave the intention to reduce size to supply to the yacht market, but of course the smaller they go the cheaper they have to offer the systems. At present not the most attractive way for them. Down to some 30+ meters they have a kite in their program already.

    It is not worth our time and effort here to try to get this premature dreamer back on the ground. His insulting comments show clearly what he thinks about critical comments.

    We are just too nasty to confirm his well settled bias, thats all the problem.
    Let him go with the thread starter, they are on the same way.

    Regards
    Richard
     
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