More ballast in vandestadt 34?

Discussion in 'Stability' started by Flash Gordon, Aug 19, 2014.

  1. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    Hi, I have a vandestadt 34 made of steel with a composite pilot house. It is fairly light not being all steel (low 5000kg). The design has been modified to provide about 6 inches of additional freeboard and it has a shallow draft keel (about 1.3-4m). While the yacht points remarkably well I am finding the angle of heel tiresome (madeby its old age) and a little tender. Further my wife finds excessive heeling too scary. The yacht is supposed to have 1.8 ton of lead poured (looks about right in the keel case). I am considering adding 200kg more. Currently she has excellent light wind performance and I dont want to give much of this up. I am trying to keep the yacht as managable as possible as I am a single hander 90% of time and disabled.
    Thanks for advice.
    Regards
    Gordon
     
  2. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    ballast for Vandestadt 34

    hi again. Vandestadt design room replied to this email and strongly recommended 200kg more ballast because of increased freeboard. So subject to further comment I plan on pouring more ballast. THe yacht currently sails very well in light condition and is fully powered with about 6 knots of wind. Do you think I will lose this advantage? will still probably insert ballast. In Hobart we frequently get 80 knots of wind and weeks of 30-60knots. Thanks for any input?
     
  3. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    If thats what the design -er recommends that sounds like the way to go..... the performance difference might only be the difference between full & empty tanks & that's something to guide by.
    With the increase in freeboard & dinghy in davits there's extra weight at height.... the overall low 5000kg figure you've quoted- VDS in steel is stated at 5.4tonne from memory, I think the shallower draft versions have a larger keel profile so ballast weight may be at similar height to full draft version but not sure.
    Is the whole coach house in composite or just a dog/deck house?

    Great boats.
    All the best from Jeff.

    PS: Might be possible to to add a keel shoe or some bulb arrangement at next slipping. Also possible to mold fitted ingots using melt away foam for castings- just make sure you can lift them or make a stacking. I've added simple lead molded from patty tins to cement in adding additional ballast, you can use a small bucket/icee container to make a pump sump in the cement also.
     
  4. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    thanks for feedback i am very happy with the boat and have had a roberts345 that wasn't comparable to the vandy (in my personal experience!). The cockpit side decks and foredeck to inner forestay are all 4mm steel. The pilot house and mid deck to innerforestay is composite (its a great change adding accessories without through drilling steel as the composite is heavily built thanks again.
     
  5. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    more and more ballast

    Hi, I am actually considering increasing the ballast to betw 250-300 kgs based on some good points made and the nature of journey and anxious wife when heeling or bobbing around. thanks for input and thanks to Vandestadt design room. My only decision now is whether to pour and cap internally (an easy job) or build a 6 inchish extension to keel, pour and weld on (much bigger job and will lose fantastic low draft but would give better righting moment). Boat wouldnt be build to accepted specs if i increase draft of cruising keel? and I assume the added wetted subsurface will slow things down. I live on a bay that requires the low draft and normally cross most bars on Australia's east coast. Any further comments are very welcome!
     
  6. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    The added ballast will be far more effective if it's added as low as possible. Without increasing draft you can mold a pair of lead "cheeks" that bolt to the sides of the keel close to the bottom. Glue them on with 5200 and drill through the whole works to trough-bolt.
     
  7. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    More Ballast in Vandestadt 34

    Hi and thanks, lead cheeks sounds easier than constructing new keel addition or lead shoe. Great option! regards Gordon
     
  8. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    I'd start with the easy stuff before committing to an external modification, the shallow draft is a big plus. You could construct a shoe that only increases the draft by 12-20mm with cheeks that wrap up the side & weld on, would be a pity to drill a welded waterproof structure... the VDS drawings are excellent as a start & a lot of the fabrication could be pre made- reasonably easy to hang the boat in travellift/crane & deposit on an enlarged base plate ready for further additions- there's a boatbuilder/repairer in Kettering with a history in fabricating steel yachts, had a lighthouse if he's still in the game , I think the ballast quoted as standard included the fabricated keel so 1600+200=1800, 4mm sounds heavier for the deck than designed, pretty sure it was 3mm but maybe with the composite house it "yin & yanged" with the 4. you could experiment with some water ballast, there's not much space under the sole but a tank under the cabin table & bolted to keel floors could help, you could just lash some plastic jerrys/demijons under to experiment or even an active water ballast,.... lash some to the rail- 4 x 20l = 1 x rail sitter... or if you have the tanks under settees to port & stb go half full & pump to windward.
    If your Wife gets a bit scared maybe motor sail a bit more & reef a bit earlier, easier to time table passages.

    Jeff.
     
  9. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    more ballast

    thabks for the useful points. although normally I build myself an injury points to contracting out unless i simply melt and pour internally. will chase up Kettering man. Good point about the 4mm side decks probably isnt helping. I am a very lazy sailer and lines arnt back to cockpit yet so have been leaving sail changes pretty late but am burying the rail in about 20-25knots and am used to stiffer yachts (adams 40 and R345). I wont take my wife out until the ballast is sorted (even the floating bobbing motion tends to make her sick without aids). thanks again will pick up ingots in Melb next week.
    regards
     
  10. UNCIVILIZED
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    UNCIVILIZED DIY Junkyard MadScientist

    My first query on the topic is how old, and or stretched out is your mainsail? On ANY boat, a tired main can make her heel excessively. Even to the point of spinning out/broaching if you've got too much canvas up.
    I'm not saying that such is the case with your vessel. However, it's the first place I'd look, & or start. Your sailmaker might be able to give it a "face lift" (nip & tuck here & there, or even a re-resining), in addition to adding some longer and or stiffer battens. Which, if the main's old, could result in a tremendous difference... of course so could a new main, if the old one's past it's time to be put out to pasture.

    If such isn't the case, is your rig optimally tuned? Such makes a BIG difference in how much a boat heels as well. I don't have physical access to my library at the moment, but recall that the following is a GR8 book on such http://www.amazon.com/Sail-Rig-Tuni...p_24_WNXH?ie=UTF8&refRID=1HPDY76EBZMG8ACER7FB
    It's been a few years since I turned the pages in it, but recall being impressed with it, despite having raced with (as well as beaten) most of the big names which you can come up with. And if you don't go with it, just find a good How To rig tuning tutorial, & such should make a big difference regardless of the state of affairs of your canvas & such.

    As to adding ballast, there are a few ways which you could go. There's the melt & pour in place option. Assuming that there's protrusions & surface(s) which the new lead would well adhere to. And or you could figure where in the sump you plan to pour, drill a few strategically placed holes, & cross weld some rebar or all thread through the holes so that the new lead "sticks".
    The bonus of this method being that there are zero new holes in your below the waterline bits.

    In lieu of pouring molten lead into the "sump". You could drop in small ingots or shot, & then pour in an epoxy/milled fiber filler in, over & around the new lead. Though if you go this way, do not pour in more than 1cm @ a time, or the epoxy will go exothermic on you. And again, as with the pouring molten lead method, the epoxy will need a surface that it'll reliably bond to.

    Or, have a designer/Naval Architect draw up some keel winglets for you, based on the premise that you're going to weld the winglet patterns onto the current keel, & fill them with lead. Something which was commonly done on America's Cup boats, amongst others back in the day.
    Again, the nice part is that you have zero new holes in your keel. But have added both extra lift, hydrodynamically speaking, as well as extra ballast down low.

    Also, it sounds as if you've got a centerboard, & if so, while it'd be a big undertaking, you could have a new, heavier, board fabricated.

    Or, finally, you could just bolt on some wings, or a bulb. http://marskeel.com/ are kind of the kings of this option, albeit in most instances doing this is far from rocket science. And there are plenty of folks who'll help you make a mold, plan the install, & pour the bulb.

    Oh, if you want to go really wild, you could retrofit for water ballast ;-) Even if it's just putting one or two, big, potable water tanks on each side of the vessel. Though likely that's a bit extreme for your purposes.

    Good luck with the project. Ah, & lest I forget, don't go too wild adding ballast, or your rig might be subject to a "gravity storm". And prior to adding this extra ballast, do a bit of thinking, & or consulting with an NA, as to whether you want the extra weight to help you out a bit with trimming your boat, bow up, or bow down.
     
  11. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    ballast for Vandestadt 34

    Wow, what a post, I'm humbled and appreciative!

    I haven't had this yacht long and have been away from sailing for 10 years so needed the advice and try not to laugh too loud at my rookie mistakes! Given my various mistakes I am pleasantly surprised she sails well and realise she has more potential (for a steel yacht with extra freeboard and low pilothouse).

    (1) sail is near new
    (2) I have been a bit lazy with tuning (a disability discouraged me from going forward and making adjustments). I'm working on it. I like the sound of the book recommended. (Aside - I actually found I had little outhaul tension on the main after heeling incidents. It was really badly adjusted and gave extra knot+ after correction. So your point is right on! Sadly, I hadn't realised this relates to heeling. I will soon know if it measurably helps stability.
    (3) great advice on pouring the lead/epoxy mix in the sump. Resolves some issues I had.
    (4) I am not too interested in welding winglet (wont bother you with details)
    (5) am seriously interested in contracting out the bolting of cheeks (split bulbs cheeks - like long anodes) affixed either side of the keel along bottom sides (will get some advice on length, width, shape for underwater profile). I like this option as I can remove if I don't like something about it or want to move it a bit.
    (6) water ballast - have large fuel tanks (for a 34fter) that contribute a little to water ballast (300litres/80USgallons). I found one was empty and one was full recently. I know she was heeling more on one side (I corrected the fuel levels but don't expect much difference to overall problem when next I go out in strong winds). I am committed to the extra ballast either way.
    (7) I am thinking 200kgs as recommended (if I need more after extensive sea trial will place in sump). Will get advice on placement re trimming.

    Thanks again for advice.
    regards
    Gordon
     
  12. UNCIVILIZED
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    UNCIVILIZED DIY Junkyard MadScientist

    Gordon,
    When you're deciding how much ballast to add, it'd pay to do some homework math wise. Meaning that were it me, I'd dig up the stability numbers on the vessel. Contact the designer & or builder, if you don't have the blueprints. And find out how much extra ballast it takes to heel her 1 degree, or 30 degrees (RM30). And then add say enough to keep her say 5 degrees flatter. I use that number, as you're not going to notice adding only enough to keep her just a degree or two flatter... so it's not worth the extra $ of adding "ballast lite".

    But as I said, it'd pay to talk to her designer on this, if you've any doubts. And as an example, at least the last time I checked, racing rules allowed for a max of 10 degrees of change in heel via water ballast when adding/designing in H2O ballast.
    If in doubt, get the RM30 figures, & then see what the comparable numbers of say 8 or so guys hiked out on the rail would add in terms of keeping her flatter. That's a reasonable figure, which is easy to mentally comprehend. And... for a couple of cases of beer, replicate, before doing any work to the vessel ;-)
    Meaning that you can bribe a few mates to replicate such a difference in heeling factor via a few dozen pints of stout.

    Glad that the thoughts on sail trim & adjustment helped, & good luck with getting her tuned out how you like!
     
  13. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    ballast for Vandestadt 34

    thanks again these are great ideas. i dont have blue print but have designers boat number registration plaque. I'll contact the builder today and find out the exact increase in freeboard (probably 4 inches 100mm and not 6). and check with vandestadt design office to to see if they can tell me what i need for 1 degree etc, If this fails I'll get some local club members to help or stack the lead on the rail and take it from there. I can't believe I hadnt thought of stacking it on the rail to get a sense of whether it seems tight??cheers and thanks again:D
     
  14. Flash Gordon
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    Flash Gordon Junior Member

    b

    i just bought 250kg of pure lead (25kg ingots) and have about another 90kg sitting on the beck of my adams 40 (unfinished project). thanks again
     

  15. UNCIVILIZED
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    UNCIVILIZED DIY Junkyard MadScientist

    Flash G.
    No problem, & you're more than welcome. I'm sure that the designers will be able to help... and, um, hopefully without you needing to reach for your wallet :)
    And yeah, it's funny, but it's often easier to assist others with their problems than one's self with his own... such is life. AND why we have mates!

    As to you owning the ballast already, if there's room in the sump, & it wouldn't be too tricky to take out the ingots later. You could just shoehorn (I'm kidding, I mean gently stack) say 300kg into the bilge for a start, & take her out for a short sail on a blustery day, then come in, & add another 50kg & go out sailing again, & repeat.. with more lead if needed.
    Thus you'd have a pretty solid idea of the results, prior do doing anything which requires power tools, or torches.

    The only caveat would be don't do it on a Real windy day. I mean like flying a kite in 40kts kind of thing.
    As if you take a good knock (or semi-good knockdown - say past 60 degrees), you don't want all of that unsecured lead tumbling, & or flying around belowdecks.

    PS: A pair of fireplace, or short Oysterman's tongs could be used for reaching recalcitrant ingots in the bilge if they're not too heavy. As might a drill affixed with a long bit, coupled with a stick with the appropriately threaded screw affixed to one end.
    Use the drill to tap them wherever they've landed, twist in your cobbled together & appropriately sized threaded handle, & lift away.
    Or, tie a line around each piece prior to placing it in the sump, & a bit of fishing net for each one might work too... to assist in extracting them I mean.
     
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