Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by brian eiland, Aug 8, 2004.

  1. High Tacker
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    High Tacker Junior Member

    High Tacker www.damsl.com

    LOL to you, too, sabahcat,

    Just as I would say to a monohuller who had never been on a cat, "You really have to be on board to appreciate the difference," the same can be said for the view. Everybody remarks that there's no mast and no boom stuffing up the view. And they do obstruct the view, whether from the cockpit or the saloon or standing on a side deck and looking across the boat.

    If you are at the wheel in the cockpit and are looking ahead for something in the water, the furled genoas on Catbird Suite are not in your line of sight, and the main, even when in the center, furled or unfurled, is above your line of sight.

    And where is your boom, relative to your 6.2-ft. height, when you are on the cabin roof or cockpit roof, or poking your head up through a hatch in the cockpit roof as depicted above? And don't forget that there are other, more serious problems with booms than obstruction of the view.
     
  2. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    I'm sure no sailing expert, but that "A" frame set up looks like alot of stuff in the air and several more lessons to master it, if that could be done. The only time I had to yell "boom" was on smaller boats, so long as the boom is high enough off the deck, I'd have to go with simplicity over what might be state of the art, or a novelty, depending on your point of view. :D
     
  3. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Boomless & Loose-footed Mainsals

    But have you noticed how high those booms (and thus the sail plans) are getting off of the water in order to accomodate the flying bridges that are becoming increasing popular on these larger multihulls. ...overturning moments :eek:

    A boomless rig has a lot of good features :idea:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/loose-footed-mains-2595.html
     
  4. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Two things I find most interesting about that rig with movable tack locations:

    1) In lighter airs on a very stable multihull (and some monohulls) it is very difficult to get your sails to hold a shape that will propel you forward. The capability to 'cant' the sail over so that gravity allows it to hold a constant shape could be a significant factor in getting somewhere if you had limited fuel reserves out off the beaten path,...or even in a racing situation on those loght air days we see many of on the Chesapeake Bay.

    2) The possibility to alter the relative position between the headsail and the mainsail along the fore-to-aft centerline of the vessel, and thus actually outpoint a vessel that can't make this alteration.
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/hydrodynamics-aerodynamics/aspect-ratio-headsail-vs-shroud-angle-39379.html#post481453
     
  5. High Tacker
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    High Tacker Junior Member

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    Wavewacker got one thing right: he's no expert

    But even Wavewacker could master this rig, with one lesson. What's to master? The rig is simplicity itself. You pull on a string, a sheet, and unfurl a sail, then pull on another string to furl it. When you want to move a sail, you furl it, slack the halyard, unsnap a shackle and move it to another position on deck. You move sheeting points simply by shifting one end of a double sheet to a different position on deck.

    Novelty? It's just more of a good and well-established thing. Take a look around. Do you see any cruising sailboats WITHOUT a furling sail? Indeed, most serious cruisers now have at least two furling sails.

    Why is it that I see all these middle-aged cruising couples on 30 to 50-ft. sloops and cutters who never use the mainsail? They use their furling jibs or they motor. And I'm talking about New Zealand where there are more boats per capita than anywhere else, real sea-faring folk the Kiwis be.

    I have an 85-year-old neighbor, and he and his wife live aboard and still cruise extensively on their 60-ft. steel ketch. Just recently he was gazing dreamily at my rig and said, "You know, I'd like to have a furling mainsail...haven't used my mainsail in about ten years...what the hell, maybe a furling mizzen, too."

    One big-roached, fully battened and boomed mainsail has much more downright fussy complexity, and costs more to buy and maintain than this entire A-frame rig with 4 furling sails, and weighs more, and the weight is much higher up. And the thing is vertical, or nearly so, and thus is pushing the boat over, or burying the bows, instead of lifting. If there's not enough wind to lift the sail out of the vertical and into an aerodynamic shape, then it just hangs there like laundry and pushes the boat backwards. And you have to round up into the wind to hoist the damned thing in the first place, or to reef it.

    Have you ever wrestled with a big monster mainsail, Wavewacker, with full battens? You better have a big electric winch. If there's any pressure on the sail, you likely need the winch to get it down. There are many times when you DON'T want to round up into the wind. And when you do luff the sail so there's no wind pressure on it, does it just sit still while you fuss with it, reefing it or just getting it down? LOL, you have to rig preventers just to keep the boom still and quiet when you're not using it.

    Another BIG point: no matter how high the boom, an accidental jibe can still cause damage.

    And an A-frame rig is no longer a novelty. Go back a couple of weeks on this thread and look at the pics and links to videos that I posted about Rainbow Warrior III, and especially the SMG-50 catamaran NumberOne, with A-frame and furling boomless sails, winning races against other big cats and tacking better than big, fast monohulls.
     
  6. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Well, I don't claim any expertise, I'd say that was a well stated defense of your position, just all sounds good. The largest boat I sailed was a 26/7 Thunderbird in the 60s, a couple Hobbies and smallerboats with sails I could hold or lose footed with one line. So, no, I'm not the salty sailor of the seven seas.

    How does you rigging and additional weight pan out against a large kite?

    What about the cost vs. the standard rigging?

    As I recall, I didn't really go sailing when there was no wind, but understand you have no choice when you're out there. I never go off any shore without a paddle and usually a motor, but again, much smaller boats.

    Now, if you want me to speak to my areas of expertise, real estate and financing/banking, I'm sure I can give most everyone a few lessons, but I'm here to learn, not teach....:D
     
  7. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Jeeeees, does this topic need/deserve so much anal pontification. They serve different functions... Whatever suits your needs/aspirations/intentions best... a matter of appropriateness or "Horses for courses"...
     
  8. High Tacker
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    High Tacker Junior Member

    High Tacker www.damsl.com

    Well, now, we are honored to hear from The Pontiff Hisself. Not at all an anally retentive kinda guy, is masalai, as witness his more than 7,000 posts on this forum, average 4.8 daily. I respectfully submit that some of his posts could rightly be called obsessive-compulsive, if not frantic, and the latest seem to be, literally, mostly about rat **** and piss, very edifying when it comes to boat design.

     
  9. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    I am certain I did read somewhere that the rig on CS was more than $75,000
    I am sure High Tacker will clarify and confirm this for us.
     
  10. High Tacker
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    High Tacker Junior Member

    High Tacker www.damsl.com

    So much for your memory, sabahcat, and I WON'T punish myself by checking exact figures, but my cost was at least twice that, like NZ$150,000. But a conventional rig of same sail area would have cost at least NZ$200,000. And the weight and windage of a conventional rig would have been closely comparable, but not nearly as manageable, and the strength to weight ratio not nearly as good. If you require further pontification, please see www.damsl.com Please do some homework, and review it, before leaping into a discussion. If you read something somewhere, then it should be easy peasy nowadays for you to check your numbers before mouthing off and wasting everybody's time.
     
  11. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    Nothing wrong with my memory, I did say
    and it was
    You confirm that below.

    Hmm
    Cost of rig, sails and deck hardware for mine was in the vicinity of $75,000, which is why I said yours would be more.
    But I would not have though that much more.
    Sure buys a lot of diesel for those 80hp motors you have;)

    Perhaps you need to look up the meaning of the word and use it in the correct context
    Seems to me you are being very dogmatic in your touting of the vessel you have for sale.
    I wonder if you weren't so desperate for a sale if you would even be on these discussion boards.
    Looks at posts http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/search.php?searchid=2309747&pp=25&page=3 and every one has a link to your vessel.
    I see a pattern and sense something more than discussion at hand:rolleyes:
    I did and couldn't find anything, which is why I picked a lower, more conservative number and requested that you correct it.
    Cant get any fairer than that.

    Mouthing off about what exactly?
    That your rig cost $75k or more?
    It did didn't it, you said so yourself.

    Judging by the way you are having a hissy fit here you seem like a very angry man and really, that can not be good for your health.
    May I suggest you go down to that boat of yours, go for a sail or a motor and chill out.
     
  12. High Tacker
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    High Tacker Junior Member

    High Tacker www.damsl.com

     
  13. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    Obviously you didnt take my hint to go and calm down.
    Do we need to call an ambulance yet or are you handling your anger OK at this stage?:p
    You really aren't very intelligent are you :D

    I am building a POWERcat (pertinent word highlighted for high tacker)
    No need for mast or sails

    But rest assured, before making my decision to go this route, I did price up the cost, seeing as I have a sailing, not power background.

    Like you said, the cost is excessive, leading me to the conclusion that power is cheaper than sail as you have already confirmed yourself.

    One has to wonder, seeing as you knew this yourself, why you threw so much coin in this direction.
    Was your lip trembling as you typed that?
    It sounds like something a 5 year old would say.:rolleyes:

    Seeing as you know little if anything about my vessel, its a long bow to draw to suggest it is any way half arsed, or does the exclusion of an Aframe mast automatically make it so :rolleyes:
     
  14. High Tacker
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    High Tacker Junior Member

    High Tacker www.damsl.com

    sabahcat,

    Hey, thanks for putting my insomnia to rest last night. But I'm awake now and hard at it trying to get the point of YOUR rambling pontification, and I think the point you're trying to make is that motor power is cheaper than sail, so even though you come from a sailing background you have now elected to have no sails at all on your "current build". So now you spend your time heckling sailors?

    Where have I said that I cared about the cost? You're the cheapie, not me. I prefer to sail, hang the cost, and I like to have motors handy for when there's not enough wind, and for maneuvering. And if I were in a real hurry, I'd get a helicopter, or a water taxi. As The Chief Pontiff Hisself masalai said just here above, it's horses for courses, you pays your money, you takes your choice. I threw some cost figures into this thread because I was asked about comparative costs between my rig and a conventional rig, and because I'm not just out here to sell a boat, but also aim to be helpful with whatever little bit I can contribute to the evolution of sailing. And then you come at me, apparently out of the backside of nowhere, saying that I'd be better off with no sails at all, saving all that money for diesel.

    So you looked up the word "pontification", so now you need to look up "non sequitur". And by the way, how much intelligence does it take to notice that this thread is about motorSAILERS?

    Yes, my boat is for sale because she's too big for me now that I'm alone, so I want a smaller boat, and with sails, not just motors. And my boat at least is already afloat, and sails, and motors, in contrast to your "current build" which apparently sits abandoned in a paddock while you waste time firing off cheap shots from behind your computer there in the peanut gallery.

    And where did that God-awful green color sort of hovering on your "current build" come from? It looks kind of out of this world. Did you photo-shop it to distract from the dirt and mildew? Surely nobody would actually paint such a color on a boat. Methinks perhaps it's the green glow of envy. Or maybe your motors are rusting so fast that they're glowing. Oh, forgive me if I'm all wrong and it's the glow from your uranium mine next door. Hey, a better guess is that the chartreuse glow is a reflection from some lost teen-aged Aussie ocker wannabe glam rockers bang-whanging away and getting paid in drinks at your local pub.
     

  15. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    Good to see you are OK, I thought a vein must have popped and you were lying on the floor somewhere judging by the vitriol that was spewing forth from that slit in your head.
    Rambling?
    My posts were quite short and to the point in comparison to your venom fuelled drivelling.
    In your case it is, most definitely and you can not deny this.
    In my case it is and I do not deny it.
    But, in many of cases it is not necessarily so.
    Correct.
    It was a decision I made using benefit vs financial expenditure and logic, not some heartfelt emotions that made little sense.
    Not at all. If I was doing that I would be on sailing forums hard at it wouldn't I.
    Where did I say you did?
    I prefer to think I have made a sensible and realistic decision based on how often sail boats need to motor in areas where there is little wind and where the boat is to be based.
    It would be quite foolish to spend a large sum of money on rig and sails that do little but cause excessive windage , attract lightning and deteriorate and devalue, when the interest from the money, if left in the bank, would pay for the cost of fuel burned leaving the principle untouched.
    I prefer to sail as well, but its a bit hard when there is either no wind or to windy to go out
    What a stupid comment.
    I cant live in a helicopter or water taxi and I do need considerably more range.
    That you do and have..........all $150k of it, plus whatever that whirly-gig thing cost earlier.
    But hey, thanks for experimenting. It saves the rest of us wasting their money.
    No, you threw some cost's in here because to thought you could make me look foolish.
    But that backfired didn't it , as I pointed out above
    Sure you are, at the start, then every post gets back to how great Aframe rigs are and by the way, you have a boat for sale with one.
    Most forums will not put up with this blatant spruiking of product
    Thats a bit rich coming from a kiwi. One has to wonder why there are so many of you coming here if it is such a bad place
    No. I was pointing out the other questionable comment in your posts regarding your Aframe rig.
    THEN, I thanked you for confirming to me that I had made the right decision by not following this route.
    I don't really care what you throw your coin at.
    That it is
    They also have MOTORS don't they?
    And I am interested in following the thread because some form of sail has not been ruled out for the rare days where it may actually occur and be favourable to my travels, but it'll have to be at reasonable cost and pay for itself, unlike your Aframe rig.

    Yes, we know your boat is for sale, you tell us this in every post
    But at some stage of its life it would have been like mine, half built and sitting in a shed?
    Perhaps you never noticed as you just cut a cheque and had someone else do the build for you. Perhaps you think all boats turn up miraculously new and shiny tied to the end of a marina berth :rolleyes:
    She's sitting in my back yard (free rent) and I am doing the build in its entirety by myself, one man.
    Occasionally I need to step away so as not to burn out, which I have already done once.

    Also there is this thing called the GFC getting around that has been SMASHING the prices of overpriced toys, even in NZ and Australia, surely you have noticed?
    It would be financially foolish of me to finish and float her now as she will cost:
    $60k +- to finish
    Once splashed an additional $200 a week to park
    All while trying to sell a house during a time when sales are not overly healthy.

    The smart move is to let her sit for a bit until the worlds financial dust has settled.

    And thanks for the cheap shots and the ones that follow.
    Perhaps you need to look up the word hypocrite
    How very astute, yes it is photo shopped (Paint.net)
    Dirt and mildew is on the primer and easily washed of prior to sanding and thanks for the cheap shots you hypocrite or perhaps you are a 5 year old?
    not that exact colour
    Methinks you have just lost your temper and shown yourself to be an idiot once again and thanks for the cheap shots you hypocrite
     
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