Modifying Plans

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Bahama, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. Bahama
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Location: Minneapolis

    Bahama Junior Member

    I've been looking at some sites to see if I can find any styles that I like as a starting point for my dream boat design. I really like this one called the Orca by Ted Brewer in many ways, but I have lots of changes that I'd prefer to make on her, but it helps for me to show you his design because it's a decent starting point for me.

    She's designed at 45' in but I would like her to be closer to 50' with a wider beam due to the added length, and I'd like to expand her sails as much as reasonable without making her unsafe--obviously she's not built for speed, but she does appear to be a very safe and smooth sailing vessel in design.

    I mainly want a larger master cabin for myself with my own shower/head for the expanded room, and optionally expand the galley and pilot house if I can just a bit.

    I plan to live on her and so I'd appreciate any pointers as I start on this venture.

    Ted also has a nice 47' Wolf Point Design, but I was surprised at the beam width, it really jumped up; at that rate I'd be at 16' for a beam size on a 50'. So I assume the wolfpoint design he did was for very smooth and safe sailing and for added comfort for living onboard full-time in that design.

    I am planning to live full-time on my boat and so I'd appreciate any thoughts from folks as to my desire to make the Orca bigger with the added shower/head. And especially thoughts regarding a beam width choice for this design on a 50'.

    I've ordered several books on building steel sailboats and so that will help in my research as well, but I've really grown to like reading this site a lot over the past several months of reading, and so I decided to join and start participating.

    Thank you in advance for any help offered. If you know of any great books to recommend please do. Here is what I ordered:

    • Understanding Boat Design by Ted Brewer
    • Principals of Yacht Design by Lars Larsson and Rolf Eliasson
    • Elements of Boat Strength by Dave Gerr
    • The Modern Cruising Sailboat: A Complete Guild to its Design, Construction, and Outfitting by Charles Doane
    • Steel Boat Building by Thomas E. Colvin
     
  2. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    45 to 50 feet..
    You want a 30% bigger boat. 110% cubed.
    Just to be sure, you do have the time and money?

    It seems like the office is still open, even if Ted Brewer has partially retired,
    http://www.tedbrewer.com/contact.html
     
  3. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, thats not a modified design, that is a new design then.

    But most of us here have been in that situation at least once.
    "I like exactly that boat, just I want it completely different"

    No insult intended.

    Richard
     
  4. Bahama
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Bahama Junior Member

    >>It seems like the office is still open, even if Ted Brewer has partially retired<<

    I'm not planning to steal his plans, they just happened to have some features that I liked. e.g. only 2 rooms, round hull with a wider beam that what is typical for a more comfortable ride.

    I'm doing what all people do, look at basic designs, see some things you like, and then start doing your own work. I was just hoping for some pointers in getting started.

    I'll probably hire much of the work done, but I would like to design as much of her as I can; I'm great at drafting homes and mechanical design on my AutoCad 2010 and so I know that I can do this; I'm also excellent with complex mathematics, so no problem learning what I need to do.

    I don't have kids or a wife... I have everything that I need to do this and so I'm going for my dream that I've been working toward, dreaming about, and saving for all my life. Yeah baby!

    Any pointers from people is appreciated especially any great books that I should read.

    I like this group a lot and I'm looking forward to talking and progressing along.
     
  5. Bahama
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Location: Minneapolis

    Bahama Junior Member

    I was seriously thinking of just buying Ted's plan because it's a very nice plan; but I am a designer and inventor by heart... I've been dreaming about this for 20 years and I now have the opportunity to go for it. I'm not going to buy the plans, I'm going to make my own design based upon the research that I'm be doing in my books and at the library; I plan to talk to people here with specific ideas or questions as I progress.

    >>"I like exactly that boat, just I want it completely different"<<

    Thanks for making me feel welcome here, and you're right, that exactly how I feel when I look at about 8 other different plans. I will say that I have truly enjoyed looking at Ted Brewer's design style, he's certainly a very talented naval architect! My hat's off to him for his life's work dedicated to offering innovative ideas and creations to the sailing community. I think he invented some kind of a comfort index as well if memory serves me correctly. Some formula that lets you know mathematically via an index number if you design will offer smooth sailing or a choppy ride.
     
  6. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    Bahama, it seems like you do have the time and everything else needed :)
    If designing the boat is a big part of the whole project for you, that's the way to do it. I just thought that buying some stock plans will save you a lot of time and money. 1800USD is not much if the plans are detailed and tells you everything you need.
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Except for the knowledge required to redesign the boat in terms of Naval Architecture???:?:

    Bahama


    It is not just changing the GA and scaling the vessel to your needs. You know?

    Regards
    Richard
     
  8. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    Yes, that's true, but I understand if Bahama wants to do the design himself, because that's a process he enjoys, so the hours doesn't cost anything, right?

    Learning to draw or model a hull and do the hydrostatics is no hocus pocus, but I think the drawings from Ted Brewer also include a lot of details on how the boat is built, sensible scantlings for example.
     
  9. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    Maybe the best approach here would be to buy a set of plans from Brewer, then make the changes you want and then ask Brewer what they think?
     
  10. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    My thought was to buy the hull plans and do the interior layout design yourself. While you could still get into trouble it is a lot harder once the basic structure is there.
     
  11. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    If you ask the designer, maybe it is OK to stretch the hull 10% lengthwise also?
     
  12. Bahama
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Bahama Junior Member

    Thanks to all for the help. I like the idea of designing this myself, including spending endless hours learning how to do it right. Once I have what I think is a good plan I suppose it would be best to post it for people to look at and crituque, but that will be a long ways off.

    Ted's boat is steel, and I would rather go with something like S-Glass and Vinylester or Epoxy Resin, so that alone changes everything.

    I know the boat will be in the 45 to 50' range, and as I design I'll figure it out. I have notice that boats seem to scale up dramatically after 45'. It's really wierd, one of those mathmatical bermuda triangle things I guess. Even 48' to 50' seems like a big difference. Very wierd, but I'll get into the math. I've already been combining over Dave Gerr's plethora of formulas... I all can say is "thank you Dave for being a designing genius". I've also absolutely loved reading "Principals of yach Design" by Lars Larson & Rolf Eliasson. Wow, that is a must read book for any designer. And I can't put down "the Modern Crusing Sailboat" by Charles Doane, another must read.

    I was pondering doing steel because I know how to weld and it would be easy and within my comfort zone to go with steel, but I decided against it because I don't want to wake up every night in cold sweat wonder if I missed a spot while painting the interior. I knew that I'd have to paint the outside, but for some reason I didn't give though to every nook and cranny on the inside, so I give up and the books made me feel comfortable with S-Glass. I look at how the SCRIMP (Seeman Composites Resin Infusion Molding Process) was done and thought, "I could do that." :) So I'm realling stating to lean toward some form of glass technology, and from what I read so far, it looks like S-Glass is a bit more spendy, but real strong and light.

    It also looked like a few carbon pieces in the really high stress areas can be an affordable way to compliment the S-Glass with some added compression strength.

    So, I'm reading like I'm training to be a naval architect, who knows, maybe I'll change careers later in life!
     
  13. PsiPhi
    Joined: May 2007
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    PsiPhi Newbie

    My 2c worth.

    If this is a life long ambition then why not take a little longer, do a course in Naval Architecture and learn what the process is really about ?

    and/or

    Engage a Naval Architect on consultancy basis, i.e. you do your designing, make your drawings, run them by your consultant and redraw based on his guidance. Repeat the procedure throughout the whole design process - it'll be your design, your work, and at the end of the day he'll make sure it still floats for you. You never know, you might even be able to sell the plans afterward too.

    Good Luck
     
  14. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Fully concur

    Bahama
    why not steel? Just for blasting some cavities you gave up on that plan? Costwise steel is hard to beat and quality wise as well. Especially when you can weld (to proper standards).

    Regards
    Richard
     

  15. Bahama
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Location: Minneapolis

    Bahama Junior Member

    >>why not steel? Just for blasting some cavities you gave up on that plan? Costwise steel is hard to beat and quality wise as well. Especially when you can weld (to proper standards).<<

    I've not compared costs for steel vs. S-glass yet so I can't speak to that; there is certainly a safe feeling with steel; when I pictured trying to blast and repaint every nook and crany inside every year it made me rethink things. I don't know how much time that would take but it did seam like a pain when compared to the low maintenance of the glass... now I'm assuming low maintenace with the glass, unless I learn of something that I don't know of.

    I also don't know of the strength of the S-Glass when compared to steel. I know that you can get an S-Glass with Epoxy to get into the neighborhood of Stainless Steel, but it's expensive, but I'm not sure how expensive.

    Thanks for asking, you make me ponder this some more. Designing is certainly fun because you weigh out in in own mind what your likes and dislikes are against a mountain of options.

    I'm a very good welder and so I know that I could do the work, that would save quite a bit as apposed to learning a new trade to do the SCRIMP.

    >>Engage a Naval Architect on consultancy basis, i.e. you do your designing, make your drawings, run them by your consultant and redraw based on his guidance. Repeat the procedure throughout the whole design process<<

    Yep, I plan to, I just want to learn as much as I can to save money plus I truly enjoy doing this-I probably should have gone to school to do this for a living because I truly love the work.
     
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