Modified Bolger “Idaho” for tourism. Safe Design?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Tropical Sailor, Oct 10, 2013.

  1. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Location: Yucatán, Mexico

    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Thanks for the info.

    Thank You Ilan,

    That´s a lot of good information. I´ll probably print out your post and save it. I´m sure we will be needing materials soon, if I can find a plan. I´ve been trying to make a contact at Mimsa in Merida. Inmensa has a larger market share of the panga business here, but their Factory is somewhere else. Whereas Mimsa has production facilities in Merida and Progresso. The director of Mimsa is named “Conde Caballero”. I know the Conde´s are from Tizimin and I have a friend whose second last name is Caballero, so I´m hoping he might be cousins with the director. I hope I can find an introduction to someone who can offer me substantial discounts on material. I don´t know if you read the whole thread or the previous thread, but this project is not for me. I don´t need a Mexican partner because this is not a business opportunity for me. I´m trying to teach boat building to a group of local youths and hopefully help them get an eco-tourism business started for them. I might have to go back to the states in a year or so. So I´m hoping to get this project done before then.

    Andy
     
  2. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    About the boat itself...I'll say like many other ; the Bolger NO.
    Electric boat forget it. You think that the outboards are expensive...electric is at least 3 or 4 times more expensive by HP. Everything will be imported, and nobody is able to install and maintain it in Yucatan. A true very expensive headache.
    A tip about the outboard(s); Yamaha is imported by Inmemsa and they never give a good price. Look at Mercury Mexico, they have better prices and the sales are not good in this moment. They are more likely to discuss a price if you pay cash. Mercury is traditionally 30% cheaper that Yamaha and Honda.
    Honda, and Suzuki are very expensive and the service is not the best. Maybe Evinrude at Merida.
    Another tip; never have a fixed hard roof in a hurricane country, too much exposed to wind. A light aluminium tubing structure with a "toldo" can be dismounted and secured before a hurricane.
    Last tip; the boat must be trailerable to be put on dry land before a hurricane. If it stays at the mooring it will be destroyed.

    Building a boat in Yucatan is a difficult task, do not underestimate the logistic problems and the additional costs. Yucatan is far from Mexico City and Monterrey...
    Polyester is the lone practical material available locally, you can build without a mold, it needs some thinking. For example it can be done with GRP plates like the KSS system. I used a system called Placoplastic, pretty simple with good results, with floors and seats in Nidacore.

    For the model: look first what's available at Progresso and the price. For good reasons the panga Inmensa 26 feet is the most common boat and modified for touristic use.
    Another monohull won't be competitive or you have to go for a very long slim boat if you want to keep the ability of taking about 12 persons (about 1 metric ton).

    The other possibility is a simple catamaran; just 2 low freeboard slim hulls and a structural floor bolted on. On the floor every thing is bolted (seats, roof, captain tower, rembarde) Such a boat can be used at about 10-15 knots with 2 30 or 50 HP outboards.
    Finally it's a big meccano, so it's transportable, easily modified and fixed. It's simple, rather easy to build and offers nice amenities for a bird watching/snorkeling/beach tour.
    For that you will need a naval architect.
     
  3. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    TS, I don't know if you have the building skills and your students don't have the whatever it is that gets them past only having a hammock and a table. Poverty has nothing to do with that.

    I doubt you have much for tools, and attempting a sort of sophisticated build and then coupling it with a sophisticated, unproven, pricey, undependable power source seems debatable.

    If those skiffs are all over the place abandoned, the least you could do would be to drag some up and study how they are built. It wouldn't be a matter of minutes before you all would start to see what needed fixing, where materials might be scrounged and soon there would be a boat in the water for free. It would be a huge inspiration.

    A poor man's kind of fiberglass substitute can be cloth and paint. If anything you do doesn't cost hardly anything, it doesn't really matter if it won't last too long, it will be an inspirational thing for sure, plus a large learning tool.

    These boats are designed for third world situations with a minimum of tools and materials needed. A hand saw, hammer, drill, hand plane and rough lumber, nails, bolts plus paint will do it.


    http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5649e/y5649e00.htm

    http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0530e/t0530e00.HTM

    http://archive.org/details/fishingboatdesig034778mbp

    http://archive.org/details/fishingboatdesig034823mbp

    Expressing yourself publicly, (or even privately can cause problems) about their politics, corruption, stupidity, etc is not a good idea. Anybody 'official' that you have to deal with probably didn't get to that position by being overly idealistic, or even knowledgeable, and keeping their position is a huge priority over helping any gringos or anyone else for that matter.

    .
     
  4. Ilan Voyager
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    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    I forgot Mimsa...I have friends from Tizimin, I'll ask them.
    If the plans are essentially teaching fiber construction, the best is to start from a bare hull from Mimsa for example, and make the floors, seats and other amenities. That's a lot of work, enough to teach the work of "fibrero", and paints/gelcoats. It's fool proof, no risk of f... whole boat.

    You'll have already enough with all the basics of GRP, plus molds for the seats. After they can see for building a whole boat...For this kind of teaching, maybe you can get a help from the state and shipyards as the qualified people are in short supply. The problem in Mexico is technical formation, and they conscious of that, so your initiative will be probably welcomed.
    Also using a bare hull you pass over all the eventual administrative problems with the SCT.

    For Sam Sam the FAO boats are of not use for eco tourism. People are used here since 35 years to polyester boats. Local naval carpenters are all dead now or very very old. Classic wooden boats ask for a craftsmanship you have to learn over a long period. In Asia this knowledge is always alive; the Indonesians make wooden boats 40 meters long. But in Mexico and Central America it's all gone 30 years ago.

    About your last paragraph, nobody has been treated of stupidity nor no policies or politics have been criticized, read again what has been written...I have just described the needed paperwork. There some tramps and they can be avoided. When you know and follow the rules things go rather smooth in Mexico.
    Laws may be or look complicated and any lawyer, or "notario" will tell the same to a foreign individual wanting to open a tourism business in Mexico. Maritime and land transportation are in Mexico reserved to nationals, or naturalized. So it's useless to get involved in an imbroglio, and to be victim of "bad guys" (bad guys are found everywhere in the world) who will suck your money with false promises in an impossible task.

    Besides, having lived in the States, I did learned by experience that American administration is a incomprehensible behemoth for a foreigner. It's a trait shared by most of the administrations in the world.
     
  5. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    As a tour boat A big local Panga is the obviuos choice. Cheap, effective and available now.

    . Once your buisness gets up, running and profitable you might look into something eco friendly and custom built.
     
  6. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    .>I think this comment is totally out of place. You could have avoided it with little effort on your part.<

    The point is folks have been killed , a ferry flipped long ago in NYC harbor watching an Americas Cup race when all the Pax went to one side.

    In NY state a uninspected tour boat killed a few from a simple wake.

    A very narrow boat has a low range of stability and tourists could easily want to see something on one side and its only one small step over to capsize.

    Again ,,the easiest safe skinny passenger boat is some form of catamaran .

    OR using accepted marine guidelines to passenger load the boat so it wont flip easily.

    Most tourists dont know anything about boats so Caviat Emptor does not work.
     
  7. Tropical Sailor
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    Tropical Sailor Junior Member

    Hello Fred,

    Excuse me, but I don´t know what comment you are talking about.

    Andy
     
  8. bpw
    Joined: May 2012
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    bpw Senior Member

    Seems best place to start would be talking to a whole bunch of panga tour operators and fisherman to ask them what they need in a boat and would like to change in a panga.

    The guys running these boats are not dumb and may have some very good reasons for using the boats they do that you have not take into account.

    Probably the best thing that could be done if you are aiming for green is to switch down to 20hp four strokes instead of the usual 40-50hp two stroke currently in use. Won't work for the offshore guys but could be great for a tour boat that does not need to cover much ground, and would still be faster than your electric proposal.

    Even a 10 hp would be faster than electric and not use much fuel at all.

    When it comes to tourists who have flown several thousand miles to go on vacation, any talk of a "green" boat trip is a joke. Lots of other lower hanging fruit to go after first.
     
  9. TANSL
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Sorry, I made an error with "cut and paste" text. I was referring to a comment by FAST FRED on the post # 26. See my post #28
     
  10. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    There are two threads going for this subject...
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/what-type-design-hull-form-please-see-fotos-48477.html


    And this tells me that lack of opportunity might not be the problem...
     
  11. El_Guero

    El_Guero Previous Member

    I am against the electric, gasoline is much easier.

    BUT, after those northerners have flown (and abused the environment) the love to feel like they are doing something green for the environment - that is marketing to relieve their pain .....

    If they really worried about green, they would by a tent, and go into the Rockies and live off of the land.
     
  12. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    BUT, after those northerners have flown (and abused the environment) the love to feel like they are doing something green for the environment

    Really ?

    Tourists that can afford a vacation can usually read ,and even the UN IOCC is on its last gasp at the global warming HOAX.

    Respect and entertain your guests , a holier than thou , you may worship at my Greeness,, may not create the good vibes a vacationer wants.
     
  13. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Andy, can you go with the larger Tennesee? or even the Illinois? the largest Illinois would handle more passengers at the expense of agility. it wont turn well but if you have a spot on your estuary to turn it or a good bow thruster(could also be electric) it might solve any stability issues with 12 maximum passengers (don't go beyond what you would use with the Idaho).
    I am pretty much the black sheep on here and really really do not like to dissuade anyone from a dream. but electric propulsion is something I have looked at - and there is nothing today (other than steam which will use up too much of your space and add stability issues to these type of hulls) that will replace oils. we have not come far enough with battery power to conserve the energy needed to power electric for long periods. I doubt that your engines would last more than two hours in real world practice- due to the weight you are trying to push around.(your passengers)... yes putting lead acid batts in the keel of that hull will keep her more stable- but not at 5 ft beam - so go with one of the two other Bolger designs or add ama's. I looked deeply into a electric propulsion for a tugboat - I can tell you that solar panels will not charge your battery banks within the time you need. unless you use a 200 w engine or trolling motor and that just wont allow your boat to have 12 people and will drain you bank in the first gust of wind.

    totally my opinion:

    1. go with a larger design- i.e. Tennessee or Illinois. or add ama's. But DO NOT increase persons above you maximum for the Idaho.
    2. use a cheap to run tohatsu high thrust outboard-or such. 10 hp should do - you will use very very little fuel and it will be far less to buy than a solar array on your canopy. Run at sightseeing speed. about 4-5 knots maybe slightly less.
    I wish you the best Amigo!!
     
  14. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    :confused::confused::confused::confused:???? El_Guero, wtf are you talking about...? what northerners? and how are they any different from the southerners in any respect? I love our pristine north and believe me its greener, cleaner, quieter and more beautiful than any southern place I've been to, and the people in the north want to keep it that way - perhaps its the other way around...! Ill take 30 million people in a country the size of the former U.S.S.R. , any day, over overpopulated places south of here...
     

  15. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    exactly!
     
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