Modern Pirates

[Mikthestik]

I don't see the problem with making war on pirates and Par I think you have it wrong, innocent fishermen would not approach your boat. IF THEY DID,
1. Change course bad guys will follow and probably fire at you.
2. If they don,t fire at you use a loud hailer to tell them to approach no further.
3. If they continue put a shot over their bow.
4. If they still persist I WOULD SINK THEM.
I assume there are no pirates logging on to this site. So how many of you sailors out there would consider approaching within 500yds of a strange boat. mik

 

[Mr Efficiency]

The world has yet to cotton-on to your car violence theory, gonzo, otherwise there would be hordes of people doing hard time for road accidents. There are already provisions in the law for dangerous driving, but most accidents involve no intent on the part of any participants to get into a crash. When people aim and shoot, there is very clear intent to maim or kill. Completely diffferent. Guns are designed to kill, and there is very limited provision in the law for circumstances where their use can be justified. I would guess that for every lawful discharge of a firearm in a public place, other than hunting, vermin eradication, law enforcement etc., there would be a hundred or a thousand that are unlawful.

 

[PAR]

There is an axiom in US law that simply states, the moment your eye has a set of sights between you and someone else, this very act is an indication of intent. There isn't a dilatation between maim or kill, as a firearm is presumed to do more then "injure". In fact, saying I wasn't aiming to kill, will be of no use in court, because of this precept. The only question left for the court is the level of intent.

Mik, everyone, even (especially) the bad guys are deserving of due process. Yes, fishermen come way too close to ships all the time. I've been aboard both during these occasions and most of the time, they don't realize they've screwed up, don't understand what 5 long blasts means or worse have some control issues they're trying to sort out and aren't paying attention or providing sufficient look outs. Maybe some time on seriously large ships would help your understanding. I've been aboard when maneuvering was all but impossible, maybe a few yards it each side of the bow, but that's it. Boneheads crossing your course that you're in reverse as much as forward, just to have a change of staying off their incompetently driven little boat.

If ships did as you're suggesting, bow shots would be flying over every waterway in the world, just before someone got their transom blown off. You can't preempt life, fate or preconceived notions. You also don't have the right to arbitrarily kill people, because you believed they where about to be a threat. Hell, if this was the case, the cops would organize armed patrols through every project in their city, killing all the assumed bay actors, justifying it with, they didn't stop when asked or some other "device" to justify their actions.

You deal with these things honorably, righteously and if a threat occurs, you deal with the threat, but not preemptively, just defensively. If a pirate boat comes along side and starts shooting, you have the right to defend yourself and property, but you have absolutely no right to start shooting, before a crime has been committed. You don't arrest someone, because you think they might rob something later that day. In the same vein, you don't kill people before your life if actually threatened. Small pirate boats are at a great disadvantage against the average ship. Their only successes have been against ill prepared crews. This has changed and shipping companies (within the scope of regional and local laws) have much better security systems, so RPG wielding buttheads can make some dents in the side of a container ship, but the security team can usually brush them off their flanks. Difficult waterways are much more actively patrolled by navies and though some parts of the world are still hot spots, this relatively recent, heightened awareness and defensive strategy, is putting a hurt on the bad guys prospects of success as pirates.

 

[gonzo]

There is no such axiom. For example, look at California law:
http://www.lacriminaldefensepartners.com/assault-deadly-weapon/
and:
http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/violent_crimes/assault-with-deadly-weapon.htm

 

[whitepointer23]

so you let the pirates approach and start shooting before you react. good luck with that. its not tv par.

 

[PAR]

Yes, that's exactly correct. You can't commit a crime to prevent a crime. Until the bad guys start shooting, the worst they've done is get too close, which doesn't warrant getting shot. Law is very clear on this.

Gonzo, that's not the law, but a defense attorney's brief and incomplete description of the basics and potential strategies, which isn't the same as the law. You can offer up all sorts of defense strategies, but unless you make a very valid argument, the moment you raise a gun, intent is inferred. In fact, you can take this further and stick you finger in someones back and tell them you're going to shoot, unless they hand over their wallet. This is armed robbery, even though it was your finger, because the inferred harm was real to the victim. Now, you're not going to have the accompanying weapons charge, but armed robbery is pretty stuff around the country anyway.

Due process requires two elements be present for a guilty verdict: "mens rea" (guilty intent) and "actus reus" (guilty action). That test is not met if no action is taken.

In short, criminal law punishes actions, not thoughts, so it is retribution, not prevention. The only way to prevent crime is to eliminate freedom, so to enjoy freedom, some level of risk and potential to harm must be accepted, which is why we have pirates, bad gays and terrorists. To use the other approuch (as suggested above) anyone could be shot, convicted, etc., all because of a perceived, but yet not perpetrated threat.

 

[Mr Efficiency]

The idea that if an unknown vessel approches you, means it is probably a pirate, mikthestick ? That does sound slightly paranoid. You might reach that conclusion if traversing an area known for piracy, which begs the question, what are you doing there ?

 

[serow]

What you are doing there is exercising your right to traverse the worlds oceans, which is where we started.

 

[serow]

Until the bad guys start shooting, the worst they've done is get too close, which doesn't warrant getting shot. Law is very clear on this......

Is it OK to shoot back before you are actually hit?

 

[whitepointer23]

The submarine train would travel under the pirates and they wouldn't even know. Unless it had its kite sail up.

 

[Mikthestik]

If an unknown vessel approaches you IT PROBABLY IS A PIRATE. I watched a few videos of pirate being dealt with by various navies. None of them looked like they were out on a Jolly. I was surprised some seemed to continue to close even when under fire. mik

 

[gonzo]

That is nonsense. Vessels approach each other on a regular basis. For example, it is common to approach a vessel to offer to sell fish and vegetables. Sometimes locals approach a foreign vessel to say hello and ask if they need help or information.

 

[hoytedow]

Maybe you don't get it, but gun violence in the USA is literally horrific.

So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2015 surpass all wars ever fought by our country. 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to the present day wars.

Murders in the USA in 2012, 60% were by firearm compared with about 30% in Canada, 18% in Australia, and just 10% in the UK. Last year there were 372 mass shootings in the US and 64 school shootings. Yeah, we don't have anything to worry about.

I think the percentage of violent people intentionally causing auto incidents, will pale in comparison to what violent folks with a gun produce.

The more stringent the gun control laws are, the higher the murder rate, not just by guns. An armed society is a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and he becomes a victim to those who would attack him.

 

[Mikthestik]

Yes gonzo I have been accused of talking nonsence before. But surely It is not difficult to make it known your intentions are peacefull. Wave bannanas instead of an AK47 perhaps. Anyone's boat approaching could be pretending to sell and still be pirates. I would not trust a strange boat. I think it would not be hard to fly a Flag, like pirates flew the scull and crossbones if you believe hollywood movies. If the world were to agree flying a red and yellow checked flag meant do not approach my boat, that might help. But then poor old pirates and real west African fishermen don't have TV, and may not read and write. The Anglo Saxon Fyrd were basically farmers who could quickly put down the plow and pick up the spear. I do advocate finding out there intentions before any action.

 

[Mr Efficiency]

Jails are full of people who resorted to the gun without strong reason. Shoot up a supposed pirate boat that isn't, and you could easily be enjoying the "crossbar motel" experience.