Modern Hi Tech Viking Ship Development Class

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Johan Strydom, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. Johan Strydom
    Joined: Jan 2021
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    Location: Cape Town

    Johan Strydom Junior Member

    Modern Hi-Tech Viking Ship Development Class.

    1. Built of modern Hi Tech materials
    2. Human powered, by any method, or combination of methods.
    3. Can be enclosed, or convertible.
    4. 60 Athletes. 5? Crew : Captain, Steersman, Cox, Navigator, Chef, Repair and Maintenance, Doctor, Physio, Sailor.
    5. 3 teams of 20, or two teams of 30?
    6. Two options with requirements for hull: a. Any hull, allowed. b. Limited by dimensions. 80' Loa, 12' Beam, Draft 3'. Maybe a 60' class too. Double ended, and steered by 1 or 2 oars, similar to a Viking ship.
    7. If sail assist are allowed, downwind sails only. Maybe dagger boards can be allowed to be able to sail up to 90 deg. to the wind. Stowable mast, to reduce windage when sail is not in use. Or a kite might be a better solution.
    8. To be raced across the Atlantic on traditional Viking routes. Example Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland. Race could start in France, Dublin, Scotland, Shetland, Norway etc. and go farther than Newfoundland.
     
  2. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Welcome to the Forum Johan.
    I think that your biggest hurdle to overcome here would be the logistics of having 65 people all in very close proximity on an 80' vessel, not to mention stowing all the food and supplies needed for these people.
    Even if you have 30 people rowing this 80' boat, I doubt that you would make any progress against even a slight head wind - hence it would be good to have the vessel able to sail at angles a bit closer than 90 degrees to the wind. I am sure that the Viking ships were able to sail closer to the wind than this?
    And once you have a sail, and can sail better than 90 degrees to the wind, on the North Atlantic where it is very rarely calm, then you don't need 90% of the crew any more.....
    Were you perhaps inspired by the Draken Expedition 5 years ago?
    Expedition America 2016 | Draken Harald Hårfagre — Draken Harald Hårfagre https://www.drakenhh.com/expedition-america-2016
    She is a fair bit bigger than your vessel, at 115' long, and with much less crew - 34 in total.
     
  3. Johan Strydom
    Joined: Jan 2021
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    Johan Strydom Junior Member

    Thank you for commenting on my post. You make a lot of assumptions, and made me realize that I did not do proper research myself. My inspiration comes from a painting in National Geographic of Dec. 1962 when I was less than 2 years old. It showed a Viking ship surfing down a huge wave, and the book I had to dare: Rowing the Atlantic in 70 days by Tom McLean. My numbers are not definite, but based on what I have read. The core of my suggestion is to have a large HPV for offshore racing. Sail ASSIST is an option. I am sure the Vikings had much larger crew than the voyage you mentioned, and they did not even have water makers. Food will not be a problem, even for a nonstop voyage. Small rowboats with one or two rowers have done that. Lateral resistance, and stability needed for upwind sailing will slow the boat down when under human power only. So will a mast. Kites do not go upwind much.( Dagger boards, and 60 crew on trapeze could be interesting) I did not mention rowing, that is just one option. I think a racing 8 can row upwind in quite strong winds. Same for a kayak, and Chinese dragon boat . I large stream lined, low freeboard vessel will be less vulnerable.
     
  4. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Vikings were able and willing to live in conditions very few modern crews would survive; let alone agree to put themselves through. Movies and reality shows of survival don't let you know that there is a film crew and support vessels supplying the "survivalists".
     
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  5. Johan Strydom
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    Location: Cape Town

    Johan Strydom Junior Member

    I thought this site was about design innovation, and dreaming of boats and not about opinion of people.
     
  6. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Johan, with all due respect, have you sailed across an ocean, and / or been involved in any long distance rowing?
    I have, although re long distance rowing I only know lots of people who have rowed across the Atlantic.

    You say (re my post) 'you make a lot of assumptions' - I don't think that I am 'assuming' things, I am simply making some observations, based on experience.
    If your team of Vikings can manage to row your ship against a 10 knot head wind I will be very impressed!
    And as Gonzo says, it would be very difficult to find 60 odd crew for a vessel like this now - and this would have to be crew who can get along well with each other for what could turn out to be a long, cold and possibly dangerous (at times) passage across the North Atlantic.
    The early Viking explorers did have a very different mindset to the average sailing adventurer today.
    In fact, designing and building the boat would be the easy bit (relatively) of this project - getting your 6o crew to row and sail her to North America will be much more difficult.
     
  7. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    Put down the crack pipe. I thought I was reaching when proposing replica 16th century sailing ship SHAPED steel boats could be fun livaboard and slow comfy cruisers.
    How about starting a little smaller, like sticking two of these together to make a faux 33' double ended row boat.https://alumacraft.com/Boat-Builder.php?id=740 You should be able to find similar used boats for cheap to free, and still fully functional or easy to patch up (only trick is finding two cheap same type boats). Bonus is you will still have two real boats. I'm thinking the first thing you will need if you ever get an 80' long boat and crew going is two sturdy runabout "support/safety boats".
     
  8. BlueBell
    Joined: May 2017
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    Location: Victoria BC Canada

    BlueBell "Whatever..."

    JS,

    Welcome to the forum (and all it's foibles).
    You'll make better headway here if you reduce your reaction to what you perceive as negative feedback.
    But pay very, very close attention to it, as it may be much, much, more valuable than you realize.

    What you don't tell us, forces us to assume.
    You bear the brunt of those assumptions, so, tell us more.
    Do you have any drawings, sketches, CAD?

    Why?
    60 grunts?
    5 crew? ( 3 would likely be adequate.)
    Where is everyone going to sleep, eat, poop, clean, etc?

    Who's going to finance this?
    Is there a budget?

    Is this just a dream or is there some reality here?

    Basically, lose the attitude and tell us more.

    P.S. Each athlete can deliver ~100 watts to the water, sustained.
    60 x 100 = 6000 watts which is ~8 HP!
    And that's with all 60 grunts, grunting!
    So, imagine your dream vessel with an 8HP outboard on it, and 60 athletes!
     
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  9. bajansailor
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    An 80' x 12' x 3' Viking ship might just about make headway very slowly in a flat calm if it had a VERY torquey 8 hp inboard diesel driving a large propeller - but put an 8 hp O/B motor on the back and it will resemble an egg beater, and you won't go anywhere.
    And even 60 very fit Olympic rowing grunts cannot sustain that 8 hp of power for very long.

    Yes, a racing 8 can row upwind very effectively - but it does not have to carry the provisions and accommodation for the 8 crew.
    Similarly the kayak and the dragon boat.
    As for your 'large streamlined low freeboard vessel being less vulnerable', on the contrary - you will invariably find that if you are in rowing mode (rather than sails), if you have a headwind you will have to simply put out a drogue (sea anchor) and wait it out, because it will be impossible to row against it.

    Even a small liveaboard rowboat for crossing oceans is not able to make headway when the wind is on the nose - all of the boats in the transatlantic rowing races have found this out the hard way.
    This lad Jacob Adoram took almost a year to row non stop across the Pacific, from North America to Australia - and at the end he had to come ashore on a beach, because he was not able to make headway against the wind to reach the harbour he was aiming for.
    The Boat — Jacob Adoram https://www.jacobadoram.com/theboat
    And this is a VERY efficient ocean rowing boat.

    There was a long thread (started by her designer Eric Sponberg) about her on here -
    Pacific Rowboat https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/pacific-rowboat.54346/

    And this is what Eric said about her on his website -
    Pacific Rowboat https://www.ericwsponberg.com/boat-designs/pacific-rowboat/
     
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  10. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    In that case a we should discuss a crewless boat.
     
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  11. BlueBell
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    BlueBell "Whatever..."

    Agreed.
    But he didn't stipulate rowing.
    And ~8hp is from all 60 athletes grunting at once.
    He spoke of teams of 20 or 30, so ~2.7hp and 4hp respectively, to cross an ocean.

    The 100 watts delivered is sustained,
    even your average Joe can do it,
    but an athlete can do it longer.

    Looks like JS may have lost interest here.
    He's not into answering questions it seems.
    That's too bad, I had lots more.
     
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  12. Johan Strydom
    Joined: Jan 2021
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    Johan Strydom Junior Member

    THANK YOU Bluebell. I have not lost interest,( I have to sleep etc. also) but I am not interested in arguing about sports psychology of the Vikings. I am sure pillaging can be a strong motivator, but so can a podium. The Cape Epic is 2 less than a thousand people. places sell out in 2 h. Lets hear your lots more, I have too.

    I started thinking what a contemporary designer using modern technology could do with the concept of the Viking ship. To me the iconic aspects of a Viking ship is a long narrow hull with shallow draft. A square sail, many oars and a large crew. The dimensions is a historically based suggestion. so is the route, but only a suggestion. There are many types of sailboats, but no modern human powered ships or even large boats. If a racing 8 can go upwind with all the windage of the rowers, the ship I have in mind will have no problem. With a draft of 1 m, little more than another 1 m above the waterline would be needed for full headroom. With a domed deck with rounded shear, and no mast or pulpits, there will be very little wind resistance on 12' beam. That is a streamlined frontal area of 3' x 12' with 40-60 athletes using machine enhanced power generation behind that. The main wind direction in the North Atlantic is NE. That makes the route a reach. The distances mentioned should be covered in a view days at hull speed. ( I have not done any calculations). I found reference of a Viking ship of 57' with 16 oars a side. The Trireme reconstruction is 121' I think. It requires 170 rowers.
     
  13. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    This is like saying that a racing cyclist can go uphill so he should be able to push a loaded ox cart with no problem. Rowing shells are designed to carry the crew and nothing else. Also, the length of a rowing race is 1.25 mile; a far cry from an ocean crossing.

    You have obviously never been at sea.
     
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  14. BlueBell
    Joined: May 2017
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    BlueBell "Whatever..."

    I tried, but honestly, you lost me at "modern Hi Tech materials".

    Trireme was some ship!

    Any answers to my questions earlier?
     

  15. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    This is how the vikings crossed the atlantic, rowing was not a major part of it.
     
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