Duet3+ : planning, planning, and planning

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by PKing51, Dec 22, 2022.

  1. PKing51
    Joined: Dec 2022
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    Location: Fleming Island, FL

    PKing51 Junior Member

    A lubber here. Never built a boat. Never owned a boat (but I used to ride the Staten Island Ferry). Not much of a water person.

    One day I woke up and realized there’s recreational water all around here, Fleming Island FL, with numerous creeks, etc to explore, which I cannot do very well in a car. And, I (72) will need some activity if I ever retire. Plus, build-a-small-boat would stretch/test my carpentry skills. So, me being me: I have started planning.

    Type of boating: If I actually build one and make it passed sea trials without cutting it up and tossing, boating would be: on a fair day, load boat in/on car (not trailer), drive 2 miles to the ramp in the ‘hood. Launch it. Putter around for a few hours to see the world from a different perspective. Return; load up; go home. Toss boat in garage; kick back & ponder what I saw. – That’s right, no fishing. This would be on Doctors “Lake” or St. Johns River; solo (maybe +1). Or, drive up/down river and launch elsewhere to see other places. Also, there is the ICW. Plus, there is (I have no desire to take a boat out on) the Atlantic.

    Type of boat: I love sailing – but just don’t want to own a sail boat. Still, boating along in “silence” has a lot of appeal. Electric (ePropulsion) is too expensive, but still possible if I fall in love with this gig (unlikely). That leaves a trolling motor for starters. And, once I’m over that, maybe upgrade to other (for more putt-putt/range) later. Boat would be over 9’ long – that don’t need no stinkin’ trailer. I plan to build a small, nesting, dinghy – with a fair bit of freeboard situated between me and all that water out there – wide enough to be more stable than a canoe – and doesn’t look too tough to build. Such would give me a chance to get practice with different woods and techniques – all on the same boat: a big plus.

    Selection: The latest design under scrutiny is Ken Simpson’s Duet3 (www.portableboatplans.com/duet.php). The 3-section option stretches out a little over 11’. Here is a VERY nicely photographed 2-section build (www.facebook.com/album.php?id=100001597531966&aid=20222). It actually looks like a boat. I ordered the “plans” from duckworks (www.duckworksmagazine.com/11/projects/duet/index.htm), and they are almost complete enough – but I have questions.

    Current Status: The first question has to do with the boat’s width, I mean: Beam. The 3-section seems a little narrow for the length, so I sent Ken a question on this, and what? Recently, he died – thus leaving us. And leaving me, surprisingly, much distraught. Quickly, I stumbled into the many YouTube videos by another mechanical engineer boat designer, Jeff Spira, and he has died too, suddenly. I’ve bookmarked his videos.

    Not knowing what else to do, I joined boatdesign.net. Reading through several threads, I noticed that PAR (Riccelli Yacht Design & Restoration) was a storehouse of information. Looking to write him, I found that Paul Riccelli passed away in 2018. I’ve bookmarked his tips website as well. That’s 3 boat designers in one week. I’m almost afraid to keep going with this.

    General question: If you have experience with a 3-section Duet3, please let me know. I don’t know that any have been built. Also, are there any “equivalent” designs? – to compare with Duet3. I am in no rush to final-select and get started.

    Width question: I have many questions, but the one up front: Duet3 is (Beam=44”, Chine Width=34”) all cut from quarter inch 4’x8’ plywood (no scarfing, yea!). In the plans, Ken Simpson says dimensions can be adjusted slightly, and I was going to ask about increasing the Beam.

    I read on boatdesign.net that you can’t just add 2” to a boat’s dimension. Adjustments must be proportional. I’m not sure that makes sense. Increasing beam 6% takes a Chine Width of 34” to 36.04”, and a 44” Beam to 46.64” – still fits the ply sheet. But, wouldn’t that change the angle of the sides? Seems like pushing the sides out the same distance at both top & bottom (~2”) would keep the sides as designed.

    Thanks.
     
  2. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Welcome to the Forum PK.

    That is an impressively detailed specification / analysis of what you want from your boat!

    Apologies for being pedantic, but will it have to fit inside a car, or do you have a pick up truck? I think you would probably find it difficult to stow a Duet inside even a reasonably big station waggon.

    If I was in your shoes, I would carefully look through ALL of the other plans that Duckworks have - and do some googling for other designers / suppliers as well, before making a firm decision.
    Have a look at Danny Greene's Chameleon here -
    Chameleon Nesting Dinghy Plans PDF https://duckworks.com/chameleon-nesting-dinghy-plans/
    She would be a strong contender if I was going to build a boat while wearing your shoes.
    I must admit though to being a bit biased - 20 odd years ago I designed and built my own smaller (7' 6") version of Chameleon, using the sketches in the link above as a reference (as I wanted to build a dinghy without having to use more than one sheet of plywood for the sides), and it has proven to be a very nice and capable wee dinghy, and is an absolute joy to row with one person (I have overtaken inflatable dinghies with 2 hp outboards when rowing to windward).
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2022
  3. PKing51
    Joined: Dec 2022
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    Location: Fleming Island, FL

    PKing51 Junior Member

    Thank you for the welcome bajan…

    As for “fit inside a car” – I drive a Prius V (the wagon), and every time I measure the back, it comes out the same. Some of the 1 & 2 ply sheet dinghies will slide right in toot suite (see for example www. duckworks.com/aqua-sport-cruiser-plans/), but that is just not big enough for me part from land in. The rear hatch can take a boat 36” wide on the bottom, expanding to 42” about 9” up & back to 39” at the top, opening 2’ high.

    I’ve been doing what you suggested (keep looking), and Explorer 3 (www.duckworks.com/explorer-3-plans/) looks possible to fit. For sure, I’ll look at other designers.

    As for transporting a 3-section Duet 3 - 2 miles to water – a hitch mounted carrier should work – if the nested stack can sit vertically. With the nested boat stored vertically, I could lift the whole ensemble by bow-loop & pulley; then back the carrier under & strap down.

    But present concern is less the logistics and more about the safety of making the Duet3 design 2-3” wider and do I just widen everything 2-3”? or do some percentage calculation.

    Also, I checked out the Chameleon. It might be in the running if it had a flat bottom.
     
  4. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    Thirty four inch chine width of Duet is not so narrow as to make the boat excessively tiddly. Adding two or three extra inches of chine width will make a difference but not very much of a difference in initial stability. Your seated position, from side to side, of only a few inches will be the difference much more than a few inches of extra chine beam. That is not to say that you must sit stock still in the boat. you can move around a bit if you pay attention to the way that the boat responds to your movement. Duet is a decent little boat. Chamelion is, in terms of easy performance, a better one. Explorer 3 is a not an appropriate design for your SOR. . It appears to have zero aft rocker and therefore will be harder to row and will use more juice for a given speed when you are using the trolling motor. However, if fast is
    what you want, Explorer would go scary fast with a 6 or 8 horse outboard. Teen agers would get their kicks with that combination. Old guys maybe not so much.

    The width of the sheer or top of the sides has only minor affect on the stability of the boat. Lots of flare is a popularly held requirement. Not because it makes the boat a lot more stable, it does not, but because it looks good and if you are going fast it might help keep spray out of the boat. At slow speeds, like with the trolling motor it matters little. In fact some very serviceable little boats with plumb sides (big ones too) were designed by Phil Bolger. Some of his boats were were irreverently called "Bolger Boxes". No matter, the boxy boats work very well.

    Boats that have flared sides do add some stability when heeled. Here is the deal..........any heel, in a tiny little boat, that exceeds 8 or 10 degrees will be pretty scary. At ten degrees heel the additional righting moment of a moderately flared hull is small. Yes it matters but the whole idea is to avoid 10 degree heeling in the first place. With just a little bit of experience in your little boat you will intuitively keep her right side up and nowhere near 10 degrees of heel. The rest of the disclaimer is this. Say that some ******* power boater comes along and makes big wakes. Those big wakes can be kinda dangerous. What can we do other than vehemently cursing the power boat guy? Try to steer directly into that big wake and deliberately heel the boat, as much as 10 degrees or more, so that it does not use its flat bottom to lift the bow too far. The little boat and its annoyed skipper can survive with a little bit of defensive action. Most small dinghy designs will not go "rail down" until somewhere near 30 degrees of heel.
     
    bajansailor and fallguy like this.
  5. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    There is something special about going to sea and returning to port. You will never regret it.

    But.

    You may regret the boat.

    A single trolling motor utilizes a really heavy battery. In a nesting boat, you have to mount and dismount the battery and motor and then the life of the trolling motor is not significant and you will end up paddling. The AGM27 batteries in my boat are 63 pounds each. They are not for older guys to play with in an out of the car and in an out of the boat, tying them down each way, hooking them up, etc. Unless you build a lifepo4 battery.

    So, I am nervous you are underappreciating setting up and tearing down the nestable boat will result in you not enjoying going to sea.

    Even a small trailer changes the entire paradigm. Now, you can keep the boat setup, drop it in the water. Or, a paddling boat skips all the battery business.

    Please consider revising your boat wishes to something that will be easier.

    It looks like St John's River is pretty big and you would experience lotsa boat traffic. So, consider a boat that is capable of some decent boat wakes as well.
     
  6. PKing51
    Joined: Dec 2022
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    Location: Fleming Island, FL

    PKing51 Junior Member

    Thank you for the info, messabout. And Merry Christmas.

    Not surprised that 6% more chine would not make much difference, but if there is enough ply around the edges to cut it a bit wider, then who would leave that money on the table? As for, “Duet is a decent little boat.” Thanks, again; I have no experience; so value your opinion. At bajansailor’s suggestion, I kept looking – and found Explorer 3. I agree it is not as “boat-y”, but it appears to have the noteworthy distinction of actually fitting in the Prius! – even with a little stretching!!! Will be making cardboard templates to check that for sure – but not tonight; it’s 28⁰ out). So, now I’m up to two designs to assess tradeoffs against.

    I agree, Chameleon would be easier to boat in, but I really would like to start out with a flat bottom and get that, once and for all, out of my system – or just love it & not.

    I got that the Explorer 3 is not as good a fit as, say, Duet 3. But, at this point it’s more about finishing the planning for one or two designs right down to half-a-gnats-***; and then, if I’m done with the house (or retired with more time), pick one and then try to find some wood around here other than, good grief, Southern Pine. I’m from the North, where they got all kinds of wood to pick from – like it’s just growin’ on trees or somethin’. But, there will be plenty of time for the find-the-wood problem later.

    Looks like with either design: better keep it under 4 hp. So, when I want to go scary fast, I’ll just fire up the Jag.

    I think your comment about flare (the angle at which a ship's hull plate or planking departs from the vertical in an outward direction with increasing height – okay, got it) is spot on. Duet has more flair, and it just looks better; must be something in our DNA that makes us see that. And, yes, you can be sure I will do whatever it takes to keep her right side up.

    Question: when you say, “…deliberately heel the boat, as much as 10 degrees or more, so that it does not use its flat bottom to lift the bow too far,” – I am unsure which way one should “heel” when turning. Seems like one would tip the deck toward the inside of the turn (so the chine starts acting a little like the V on a V-bottom – and not toward the outside of the turn, which might present the flat bottom face-on to the wave – right? In other words, one wants to cut through the wave rather than be slapped by it. Please correct if wrong.

    As for not going “rail down” (and taking on water) – that’s actually why me’s eyeing them dinghies with “taller sides” (or more freeboard, you might say). Some of these “one-sheet” designs are appallingly small and, gosh, “exposed”.

    Thanks again for taking the time to write.
     
  7. PKing51
    Joined: Dec 2022
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    Location: Fleming Island, FL

    PKing51 Junior Member

    You make me laugh, fallguy – your first 3 lines. Oh, I do fully expect to regret the boat – and that’s even before we get it in the water. But, I’ll not let regrets worry me. If it gets really bad, there always remains a Sawzall and the RosemaryHillSolidWasteManagementFacility.

    As for propulsion: one or two rowing stations, sculling out the back, electric (troll or ob), gas ob, and sail – or various combinations of these. Everything is on the table. But, me being me, you can be pretty sure I’ll go straight for the gas ob if I can find the right deal. Gas ob-s are very expensive. So I think, “used electric motor?” But you may be right about the weight problem and, more to the issue, limited range. I really do want to get back to port from wherever I go.

    As for “going to sea,” if I enjoy where we go and like what I see, rest assured I will work the effort/results equation towards optimum – even if that includes switch to another boat with a trailer. But not for starters.

    Also, one major point of this whole exercise is to take a crack at building a boat – small boat. But, if I really like it out on the water, then I am pretty sure a 16’ Starcraft Jupiter would be an easy slide into the garage – straight on – given the right kind of trailer.

    But first, I have to be sure I will really like it – because, no; I don’t want to regret the boat.

    Yes, the St. Johns is 3 mi wide down here around the Buchman. A guy I work with (2 cruisers and his own private dock on Doctors Lake – which IAN destroyed, ouch) says: don’t go out on the St. Johns in less than 20 feet. Who knew?

    But, by the time I’ve explored Doctors Lake and its creeks, and driven to other launches–or the ICW—I’ll know what the next step should be.

    Thanks for writing. I'll probably take it out rowing a few times and get real tired of that real quick and then go ob hunting.

    Merry Christmas.
     
  8. Rumars
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    Rumars Senior Member

  9. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I have a 2016 Yamaha 2.5hp four stroke engine. I can unequivocally tell you it is the worst outboard I've ever owned.

    ...which is a damn shame...

    What they did is made the jet too small. The thing clogs if it doesn't get used every 90 days.

    Anyhow, the older two strokes are actually pretty reliable.
     
  10. PKing51
    Joined: Dec 2022
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    Location: Fleming Island, FL

    PKing51 Junior Member

    Now that is wwwaaayyyy outside the box, Rumars. Thanks for posting. Never would have found that on my own. Takes me back to a sunny afternoon I spent out on one of the Finger Lakes in a two-man, folding kayak with my boss at the time (~1975); I’d completely forgotten that beautiful day.

    I can’t remember the brand; pretty sure not a Folbot. I think it was from Europe, was sloop rigged, with dagger boards, and inflated buoyancy on the sides; hull was dark blue. The dang thing flexed with the waves – like you wuzz one-with-nature or something: very neat. The pilot sat in the back and steered using pedals linked to the rudder; none of this tiller crap. It was amazing – hands free. Thanks for reminding me. I wish I knew the brand to see if still made.

    Back to the Wa’apa. If I had one of those, I’d call it the Wah’per – like the burger. That is one strange boat – okay, canoe not boat. Can you imagine crossing the Buchman and looking down to see one of those? – a two masted balanced lug running a jibs (the front one off a bowsprit), with red sails? It would cause accidents.

    Not looking to start with a canoe, but thanks, again. I’ve added “Wa-apa Outrigger Canoe.xlsx” Excel to the Boat-Sailboat folder for future reference. It looks fast.

    Thanks again & Merry Christmas

    Gosh, here’s one on UTube: – Nice lookin’ junk
     
  11. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Gary Dierking's designs would be very safe on St John's River.

    The amas and akas are easy to build.

    I actually have Dierking inspired amas on my canoe and it would be safe in about 8' seas unless it filled with water.

    I would not be eager to discount a Dierking rowing canoe.

    I have a Gilpatrick canoe, but it is really hard to paddle because so wide. Do over, I build a narrower, longer canoe with amas.

    A wider boat is a LOT more work to propel through the water.
     
  12. PKing51
    Joined: Dec 2022
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    Location: Fleming Island, FL

    PKing51 Junior Member


    I have very carefully avoided mentioning 2-stroke – to not be branded a pole-looter. But, now that you mention it, I prefer the sound of a 2-stroke running steady under load vs a 4.

    Example:

    I don’t worry the fuel; had a 2-cycle snow-thrower in Jersey – very reliable. Should be able to smuggle a small ob in from Barbados if not available here - when the time comes.

    From https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/720538-florida-2-stroke-vs-4-stroke.html

    “Much of the 4 stroke praise is really in comparison to old school 2 strokes. Modern DI 2 strokes don't have issues with starting (and actually have a more advanced fuel injection system than 4 strokes, direct injection vs port injection), they don't smell or smoke either. They're generally cheaper to maintain. They produce more torque. They are very quiet, but not as quiet as a 4 stroke. Some folks enjoy the engine note, as opposed to it sounding like a vacuum cleaner. There are pros and cons for each. A modern 2 stroke will generally use less fuel trolling, 4 stroke should use less mid range, WOT could go either way depending on the engines being compared.”

    I plan to build it first and consider power later; I try not to have problems before they are needed. Thanks for the intel on that Yammy.
     
  13. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    You probably used a Klepper, and yes they are still made www.klepper.com There are also clones available, the Long Haul is US made Long Haul Folding Kayaks - Adventure Awaits - Shop Now! https://longhaulfoldingkayaks.com/ and Wayland from Poland WAYLAND - https://wayland.pl/ There's also some other manufacturers if you're interested.

    Another option is to have a boat light enough to be easily cartopable, for example this one, Whitehall page http://gentrycustomboats.com/Whitehallpage.html or this one
    http://gentrycustomboats.com/Indian_Creek.html both at 55-60lbs.
     

  14. PKing51
    Joined: Dec 2022
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    Location: Fleming Island, FL

    PKing51 Junior Member

    Bingo! I think you nailed it, Rumars. The foot pedal/rudder setup ruined me for tillers, and I wasn’t even steering: https://sailyourkayak.com/long-haul-rudder-kit/

    And we had to be in the Aerius. FOLDING KAYAKS - Aerius 545 - Klepper Folding Kayaks https://klepper.com/klepper-shop/Aerius545/

    Hard to believe it is still available - new. That was almost 50 years ago. Almost feels like closure to find this. Couldn’t see through the sails on the one I was in.

    Of course, current focus is on build-a-boat-planning, but I’ve captured the info should I need it later. Thank you for finding this
     
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