Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. The Q
    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 153
    Likes: 12, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 21
    Location: Norfolk, UK

    The Q Senior Member

    I can see your class design ending up looking like some of the Victorian , early 20th century yachts, short hull, Enoooooormous bowsprits, to get the sail area large, but with less up high sail area which gives more inclination. this would of course solve your problem by moving the sail area forward.
    your class rules
    Rule 1 Maximum LWL is not needed because of rule 2 maximum LOA
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,643
    Likes: 315, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    See tentative rules pdf below:

    Thanks! After a quick read the only thing I don't like is the restriction on what it has to look like. When I was working on the concept early on I was convinced that a boat like an open 60-very wide- might be a good way to go. The rule might prevent that? And the boxy "Mini" scow forms have proved fast and might be a good "design space" to explore at this length.

    PS-imagine this boat decked over. I grew up sailing the boat-9' Dyer Dhow- from about age 5-10. It could carry a lot of weight. Problem is it is a foot longer than allowed in your rules:

    [​IMG]

    Turbo version:

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,643
    Likes: 315, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Dyer Dhow sailing dinghy

    Here are the Dyer Dhow specs. It's 4.5' wide. After thinking about it and based on my years sailing it as a kid(and a few times older) I'd suggest that your rules change:
    1) LOA to 9',
    2) max beam to 4.5',
    3) Upwind SA max 45 sq',
    4) Downwind SA max 100 sq.ft..


    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3820

    This is the first idea I had after starting the thread:

     
  4. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,194
    Likes: 25, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    I think that the right direction for these MYs is to go one design for most of the expensive parts to accentuate the strengths and protect investment in the class. I have given my reasoning in the past and might summarize again, but for the rest of this post I will address your question by commenting on your rule.

    For starters you should specify how these boats will compete -I am guessing standard windward leeward course. Point to point? Conditions?

    The rule starts out trying to spec a little keel boat. Then it goes on to being a box rule. Then comes the subjective "cute" requirement -box rule boats tend to look like boxes because bigger boats are faster than smaller boats -not cute. At the bottom the rule opens to all out warfare with canting keels and dynamic stability...but tries to cap the cost at $2k without specifying accounting.

    BTW, you didn't prohibit human propulsion -oversight?

    Seven sails in the limited airspace defined by the box is insane.

    As I said above, I think the majority of this boat should be one design. The deck and sail rig could be left for development to add character, but for real sailing competition the sails and rig should be one design. If you want to go for the innovation of a development class you are throwing out all that you have done (the winner will not be a cute little keel boat) and you have a ton of work to do to close up loopholes. I would toss your rule in the trash and start with the "Hardware Store" as a template for a limited development class.
     
  5. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,903
    Likes: 105, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I looked at your proposed rules.

    Two other limitations you might add are a absolute limit on Sail Area, except for specialized down wind sails, and an absolute limit on Ballast (which you already have).

    These limitations will go the furthest in preventing box like hulls that just about any 'box rule' is likely to produce.

    The limit on Ballast will limit the righting moment of the boats, reducing its ability to carry excessive amounts of SA. such will also help insure the boat is not a nightmare to set up and launch (you have already limited the sailing Draft).

    Limiting the SA directly will encourage taller rigs, to get the maximum effect out of the amount of wind available.

    These two limitations, on top of those you have already proposed, (on Max Beam, Max Hull Length, and Max Draft) will encourage graceful, rounded Hull sections, and perhaps even shorter WL Lengths, which are better at slipping through the water than holding up massive Sail Plans.

    A prohibition on canting Ballast would also be necessary to prevent ugly boxy types from dominating.

    Limits on: Hull Length, Max Beam, Max Draft, Max Ballast, and Max SA,
    are what I call 'Strategic Limitations'. With these in place, you probably only need your three safety rules: the self righting one, the emergency flotation one, and the sailing conditions one, plus the sitting in the boat one, to make a pretty good class rule.

    No one is going to add more than the dead minimum number of appendages, two, as more will simply add more drag than they're worth.

    As for Mast Height: ever taller masts deliver ever diminishing returns in efficiency for the amount of Heeling moment they create. A boat with a taller than usual Mast might well have an advantage in light winds, but is likely to get creamed in more average conditions. The main would have to be dramatically reefed. And all that bare Mast above it would end up being nothing but drag.

    The rig types you are most likely to see are almost exclusively sloops, as Cat Boats may have the mast too far forward for the crew to deal with conveniently, even though they are the most theoretically efficient types.

    Schooners would never appear, unless they got a special exception on the SA limit, like say 15% more. Otherwise, they would be hopelessly out classed by the Cats and the Sloops. The same goes for any other two masted types, but maybe to lesser extent.

    Perhaps, if you want two masted types to join the fray, you could stipulate that if the boat has two Masts:

    and the fore mast is the tallest (with its top significantly higher than its aft mast) the boat will be allowed 10% more SA.

    But if the aft mast is of equal height to the fore one, or taller (measured by its top height), the boat will be allowed 15% more SA.

    In each of these cases, the shorter mast height should be stipulated to be at least 50% of that of the taller one. or you could end up with 'pretend' ketches, yawls, and schooners, where the shorter mast is a mere flag pole with an insignificant portion of the total SA on it.

    I once propose a class, on a different thread, where the Hull Length and the Rig Height were not directly limited, but traded against one another, so a longer Hull had to sport a shorter Rig. This was done with a 'Sum rule', where both of them combined added up to a certain amount. This way, the longer boat could be a real screamer, off the wind, but the shorter one, with a taller rig would be far better upwind.

    Now that I think about it, you should careful to stipulate that if the sail height is higher than that of the mast that carries it, its height should be counted as 'Mast Height'. Otherwise, you could end up with boats claiming a 'schooner exception' when they are really ketches or yawls.

    The 'fore sail' could be a Gunter or even a Lateen, with much more SA than the 'aft sail', even though it may have a much shorter Mast.

    Good designers are very good at rule beating, so you have to anticipate abuses.
     
  6. rcnesneg
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 456
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Utah

    rcnesneg Senior Member

    I think a lot of us are missing the whole point behind these boats. They are clown boats. In fact, perhaps the most important rule is that it should look like a mini sailboat. If you want to race go get a 2.4 meter. The rules are only there to put number limits on the designs I'm making so they don't get out of hand. Thanks for the feedback guys, good things to think about.

    PS: I'm thinking about making a schooner too but I can't get the seating to fit well.
     
  7. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,194
    Likes: 25, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    Competition refines the breed. If there is no competition there is no point in any rules. If you just want company in similar sailboats -well that fits my plan perfectly. Make a kit for the expensive and difficult parts, and leave the "character" and looks to be unique. Then put all the focus on great outings.

    As far as racing, I think the 2.4 and MM classes are a bit too difficult to get to the water. They require a club facility on the water to be practical and that closes the door on venues and activities -same small group of people, same place, same monthly bill.

    Lastly, don't assume that everyone has the same goal or interest in the boats. Certainly this forum is more inclined to function. If you want greater appreciation of "clown boats" duckworks is where you need to post.
     
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,643
    Likes: 315, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Micro Performance Yachts

    From the first time I saw the Minuet to the Open 60 type's inspired by it I never, and still don't, think of these boats as "clown boats". I think they can use modern design approaches and have plenty of performance with the emphasis on FUN. Trying to make them look like little big boats has no appeal to me whatsoever- designing and building little performance boats does.

    I have to admit that since I saw one of these I've been thinking of the possibilities-Seaclipper 10:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  9. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,194
    Likes: 25, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    This forum is distinctly "form follows function". As such I think that most here see these boats as a chance to prove out some design aspect without too much drain on resources or fleet expansion. Most of us have big ideas for big boats that we will never commission building. To my interest, the MY is a boat that a complete beginner can go out in safely with minimal instruction. As they gain capability the MY can be amusing in tougher conditions -the smaller the boat the bigger the water seems. You could go out on a blustery day and have an epic battle for survival with waves the size of the boat, broaches, knock-downs, and sail back to port after and tell tall tales of the struggle over beers.

    Leaving room for self expression in the design is great -but form following function IS what I would express with mine. Trying to look like a cruising boat adds no appeal for me and I wonder if it didn't detract sales from the original Minuet. There are people who like cute caricatures of things -they are Not the kind of people who buy sailboats.

    There was a home movie I saw once of a bunch of Italians getting together and sailing 10ft multihulls of all kinds. There was a 'race' but it was clearly not the focus. The objective was enjoying the day. Build something interesting, show it off, sail, eat, drink, and be merry!
     
  10. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,903
    Likes: 105, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I agree with the general consensus here.

    This type of boat [an 8 ft long miniature keel boat, with a retractable keel with ballast bulb] has considerable appeal.

    Yeah, it is a toy. But so is the 30 ft cruising boat (which, all too often, never goes cruising) it represents.

    The advantage of this type is it can be launched from the shallowest launching ramp, or even beach launched (with a special cart and some careful planning). The ballast bulb is light enough to be manageable, but heavy enough to offer real self righting capability, given the generous draft allowance.

    I can imagine people who have gotten too old and stiff to be good El Toro sailors might like this type.

    With a 4 ft max Beam it is possible to design a trailer or even a roof rack to carry two of them (minus keels, of course).

    The keel could be set up on a special cart, to hold it upright, so the boat could be lowered on top of it. Then the keel could be locked in place, and the cart wheeled into the water. Then the keel could be lowered to its sailing position.

    For this reason, I think the 50 lb bulb weight limit is a good idea.

    The keel unit would probably weigh around 60 lb total, an amount most people should be able to handle.
     
  11. rcnesneg
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 456
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Utah

    rcnesneg Senior Member

    True, and at the end of the day, the rules are only really for myself and anyone who wants to make a boat to match mine. Nobody is going to enforce it, and there are a lot more of the original Minuets around than 8 foot clones. It would be cool to see a little trimaran too. I know a picture of an 8 foot tri surfaced on here in the last week somewhere. That would be over 4 feet of course.
     
  12. rcnesneg
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 456
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Utah

    rcnesneg Senior Member

    [​IMG]
    Found another one! Mini Hunter Sonata 7. Only information is on Youtube.

    "This channel details the design and build of my 35% scale Hunter Sonata pocket yacht. The concept is based on the original Minuet pocket yacht design which is no no longer available. The original Minuet design looked a bit like the Hunter Sonata but was a bit generic in styling. I have scaled the popular Sonata exactly to 35% scale which ends up with a boat 2370mm long x 950mm beam. This is a few inches longer than the Minuet was, but this really helped to keep the design displacement much closer to scale. Only departure from original is the lead ballasted removeable daggerboard. Mini Sonata has sail plan closely based on original Sonata and also has a spinnaker!"

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEcHaFl4ITiJHPp3MXQwgxg



     
  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 16,643
    Likes: 315, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Great find, RC-thanks!
     

  14. rcnesneg
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 456
    Likes: 6, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 58
    Location: Utah

    rcnesneg Senior Member

Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.