Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. wannathermal
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    wannathermal Junior Member

    So, where are the plans?:cool:
    Build one for each family member!
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============
    I don't know AK-I tend to think if a good designer spent a little time and mixed in a little modern technology an improved version of this thing could be created that doesn't deviate much from the original concept.

    So far in researching this thing I've found only a weight-66lb-no beam, no SA.
    In some quick calculations it looks like 35 sq.ft. of upwind SA would work.
     
  3. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    35 sf may be a little too much, looks like it's carrying around 25 sf in the video and it seems plenty. I had about 15 sf of sail on a 3 m kayak and it's surprising how quick that little boat was; the problem was upwind - too much windage as I didn't have enough room to get low down in the cockpit to get myself out of the backwind off the sail, which was very noticeable on certain points of sailing. I never got around to trying out the planned 20 sf rig. main problem with sailing a kayak is lack of agility - slow to turn so a change of tack becomes a toss-up, not a problem with the Minuet - it turns on a dime. Back then I was concerned with not allowing the kayak to heel, but watching the the Minuet that may not be so important with a boat that will not flood at 45 deg or so if the sailor can stay low so ti doesn't turtle.

    The Minuet is a recent design and according to the website has had about 3 years of development put into it. It's a pity there are no plans. Apart from its utter cuteness, there are more practical designs around like the PDR.
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I've thought a lot about this and done some rudimentary calculations and I think if I was to do something similar I would want to assure that it would sail well in rough water. In front of my place is the intercoastal and it gets rough enough a lot of the time to preclude an unballasted boat.
    So I would do something like:
    LOA 9'
    Beam 3.5-4'
    SA 45-50 sq.ft-upwind
    Spinnaker, if possible*( facillitates planing off the wind)- 45-60sq.ft.
    Draft 3.5'
    Ballast 50-80lb on end of 3' daggerboard
    All up weight-100-130lb
    Now, one of the things I most like about the Minuet is the fact that it is unballasted but looking at it for me and where I live it would be impractical because of its lack of stability and the requirement to sail in virtually flat water. I want to sail in rough water without worrying about a non-recoverable knockdown.
    Well, thats a summary of my thinking thru tonight. It could change again tomorrow night. One things for sure though: something like this could be a really nice thing to have around. Another things for sure : I won't be able to do anything about this for a long time.....

    * I designed and built the first production RC spinnaker boats ever about 15 years ago. In order to work satisfactorily they had to set and douse fast and gybe easily. That system might be suitable for a little thing like this because of its simplicity and the fact that this little boat could then plane off the wind.
    A simple roller furling gennaker might work as well except that sheeting would be more difficult than the updated model system.

    Pictures:1) S50 and America One-first production RC spinnaker boats in history as far as I know-about 25 built. 2) symetrical spinnaker setup-in a model this system was far simpler than an asymetrical setup.(would use only the foward part of the illustration)

    click on image, then expand the image-
     

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  5. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Hi, Doug.

    I think you'll have trouble with that heavy dagger board. Imagine putting the the board in after launching the boat. You probably won't be able do while the boat is afloat, unless the boat is launch from a beach or ramp and the board locked in the up position until the boat reaches deeper water. Then you will need a pulley system to raise it.

    There are few of things you should know about narrow monohulls:

    1.) they are easy to carry,
    2.) they are easier to load on top of your car than a shorter, wider boat of the same weight, and
    3.) they are very easy to right.

    You could probably dispense with the heavy ballasted dagger board and have easier to install internal ballast (it can be installed in small chunks).

    You really don't need enough ballast to right the boat with you in it, but enough so the boat will float, mast up, with the emergency floatation.

    You want it to float high enough so it can be bailed out, but low enough, so you can easily get back aboard.

    Below are two drawings of my Coal-Car scow.

    It is 12 ft long and only 3ft wide. The ballast is only 50 lbs, broken up into two 25 lb bags.

    The floatation is strategically placed to meet the goals mentioned above.

    The boat may even work without the ballast. The weight of the skipper may actually keep the boat upright enough to bail out, once the skipper swims back aboard.
     

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  6. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Bob: I agree wholeheartedly with your list of the advantages of narrow craft. Has the scow been built and sailed yet? If not, I would worry about its narrow beam with a relatively shallow draft and the crew carried rather high. Stability can come only from an agile crew, I doubt the sandbags will help much. What is the KM?

    I have been experimenting for a few years with very small (1 or 2 ply sheet) designs some of which got built, and I learned that to have stability, a narrow boat has to sit low in the water and carry its weight as low as possible. So a designer must keep the bottom narrow but wide enough to accommodate the crew's butt. At the same time, unless a heavy keel is carried the beam must flare out to the waterline. For the scow I can see how the severe rocker lowers the bottom but the beam is carried right down to the bottom, whereas a 5 plank design with bilge planks could lower the boat several more inches. Also, I think the crew would be better off sitting on the bottom rather than carry .

    My only successful, flat-bottomed boat is one of Par’s designs with a much wider 4' beam, stable enough for me to walk around, which was a bit of a surprise. I did a 2-sheet FreeShip design with KM = 2.4' which is only 7.5' long with a 3' bottom but it flares to 4' at the sheerline and has a lot of rocker to keep the transom dry, as well as side decks and coaming so it will heel a long way without flooding.
     
  7. Lister

    Lister Previous Member

  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =======
    I agree, Lister-thanks for the comments!
     
  9. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    You are correct in most of your assessments.

    The one thing you over look is the long, deep rocker, one quarter of which is above the waterline. As it immerses, it produces a great deal of righting moment, as the buoyancy is concentrated on the low side.

    Still, it will probably capsize well before it reaches 90 degrees of heel.

    No. I have not been able to build a copy.

    I have since decided to chop 9.0 inches off the length, so I use less wood and have a decent transom to hang the rudder on. I would also like to be able to carry it in the back of my pick up truck, without more than half of it hanging out. It's 3.0 ft Beam will fit nicely between the wheel wells.

    The rig will probably have to be moved forward, to give rudder more turning arm.
     
  10. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

    what is a mini 12
    where could I see it on the net?
     
  11. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

  12. Manie B
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    Manie B Senior Member

  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =============
    Manie, this is the International 2.4 meter class site: http://www.inter24metre.org/

    SPECS:
    Crew 1
    LOA 4.16 m (13 ft 8 in) (Mark III)
    Beam 0.805 m (2 ft 7.7 in)
    Draft 1 m (3 ft 3 in) (Mark III)
    Hull weight 260 kg (570 lb)
    Mast height 4.65 m (15.3 ft)
    Main & Jib area 7.5 m2 (81 sq ft) (Mark III)
    Infobox last updated: 15 August 2009[1][2]
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Little 60

    Rough preliminary sketches on rough paper-Little 60: ( updated 11pm ,12/19/11)
    --LOA 9'6"
    --Beam 3.5'
    --Displ w/crew 350(250lb crew-allows wide range of crew weight by adding ballast in center for lighter crew)-boat could be lighter
    --Upwind SA 50 sq.ft.
    --Downwind SA 115 sq.ft (asy spin or Hoyt-Lord system)
    --DSS extended 2.5'to leeward. RM from foil at about 20 degrees angle of heel at 8 knots(just planing) : around 300ft.lb-more than a three foot keel with an 80lb bulb canted 90 degrees! DSS effectiveness on this boat much less upwind approx. 40ft.lb at 5-6 knots.
    --DSS foil fits in sealed trunk in bottom of boat.
    --Twin curved daggerboards. On the Minuet the crew has to sheet the jib every tack-on this boat the jib would be self-tending so racing workload for crew moving daggerboards tack to tack would not be excessive*. Daggerboards could be made in same mold as DSS foil.
    --Bow sprit moves side to side. Main is similar to model main and does not require full battens. Upper "gaff" fits in bushings at top of mast.
    --Boat would probably use twin rudders to go with the twin curved daggerboards.* If desired, windward rudder could be raised with same action as raising windward daggerboard.
    --The boat would be designed to carry 50+lb of ballast but would be tested without it. Possibility of crew moving to weather-problem is opening cockpit wider and facilitating swamping in a knockdown- and holding crew in position a 30+ degrees angle of heel. A narrower-more or less "form fitting" cockpit would keep crew in center. Crew seating could be designed to allow crew to sit angled to weather?
    --Rig "gaff" similar to smaller model in picture above. Allows an advance planform w/o requiring full battens but I'm leaning toward a simple peaked up square top instead.
    --Spinnaker system could be asymmetrical roller reefed on long or short bowsprit and bowsprit could be moved side to side if desired. Spinnaker could be left up like the WETA trimaran. H/L spinnaker system from model may be easier to handle but requires trough in forward deck ahead of forestay and a tube under the deck sealed from the inside of the hull.


    click on image:
     

    Attached Files:


  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Little 60

    I've been discussing this with a friend that, like me, is interested in a mini boat inspired by the Minuet but technologically totally different. The boat we're discussing(see previous post with ideas up to now) has an emphasis on being able to sit comfortably and have the max performance possible in a boat of this type. We are not shooting for lowest cost, or "simple"(too much)-but an easily handled boat that would have to be learned how to race-but the learning part would be a blast. A "techno" boat to the max around 9' that you sit in and that is unsinkable and built of carbon, glass and foam for minimum weight. Crew weight equalized and set at 250lb. Lighter people would carry lead.
    So here is an e-mail I just sent my friend of the latest thinking:

    I just did some doodling because I kept thinking about our fat asses going to waste just sitting in the center. When you first suggested it I could only think of moving sideways while facing forward-that just wouldn't work when you throw in heel. So how about this: we widen the boat more so you can sit across the boat -back against one side feet on other side. But heres the neat part: we sit on a bench seat that swivels and slides- so all you have to do to tack is lift your feet up grab something and swivel and push to the other side! You could actually sit in any position in between but thats how max to max would work.Refining the system would allow sliding fore and aft though if the seat was somehow 2' wide you could slide aft when at max position. And a side benefit would be being able to uses a "normal" tiller and tiller extension! I think this could be done real simply. Dramatic increase in RM-maybe 1.5-2 times! No ballast! And I had another concern: if these are to be raced then a way has to be found to equalize weight-with the sliding swivel seat the "equalization" weight could be in the seat-up to "X" pounds anyway..... What do you think? Sketch tomorrow of the new beam and deck plan.
     
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