Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. rcnesneg
    Joined: Sep 2013
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    More fun adventures, and observations.

    Finished the Code Zero! Haven't had a chance to try it (winds too strong)
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    Took her out again Saturday(yesterday) morning! Winds were 10-15 mph gusting to 25.

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    My ear got splashed, but I didn't get any water inside, even when pushed over that far!
    Here's the rig setup I sailed with most of the day. Double reefed main and the radial blade jib.
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    Single reef and radial jib:
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    Wing on wing, no reefs, radial jib.
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    Interesting observations: The sails are extremely flat (see first sailing picture), and I feel like there is not much power in the rig, especially when reefed down. I think I may try doing some adjustments on the main to get more draft. I rewatched the british minuet videos, and they seem to be performing better than mine is. I'm pretty sure the hull is similar enough to rule that out, so I'll be working on getting more power out of those sails.

    Also, once the boat heels well over, the rudder comes partway out of the water, and you lose steering as you gain weather helm.

    I had the 50 lb keel up 6 inches the whole day because of the water level in the marina (2'5" draft instead of 2'11"), and it still had plenty of stability, even when pushed hard. I did notice however, when I turn hard, the boat leans to the outside of the turn, quite noticeably. I suspect the mast weight has something to do with this. I think I need to try to get the weight of the mast down. I believe the 12 foot mast is around 15 lbs right now. That will help with performance too.
     
  2. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. The production boat videos I saw were in super small waters -absolutely no fetch, and no waves. The proximity to land and the small boat accentuate the appearance of speed. You are in more realistic waters losing performance to hobby-horse pitching, waves and interactions. You also carry a much taller rig which will drag down performance when reefed. I would also be surprised if your boat was as smooth and light as the production boat. I think your boat has more power than the production boat, but more drag. I recommend that you concern yourself with the performance of your boat against it's theoretical hull speed in various winds and forget about the production boat.

    Your boat reefed down has a lot more weight and drag because it carries the huge light wind rig. Carrying a flag does not help. I don't think you have too little power, I think you have too much drag. Draft=10% of cord should be all you need. If you are going to do anything to the main, give it a smooth transition from the mast. The easiest power increase would be to close off the jib to the deck.

    Your code zero looks excessive. The cut looks more upwind than down. I think you may finally overpower your rudder and have lee helm. How do you take it down on the water?
     
  3. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    For the comparison, I am also sailing primarily in sheltered waters. I have taken her out on the open lake a total of three times out of the seven times I've sailed her. Two of those times were with the smaller Gaff rig. The third time was incredibly light wind with the tall rig. The last two times it's been the tall rig inside the marina.

    You're right about the large rig, but I'm unwilling to sacrifice the light wind rig size for better efficiency in higher winds. I believe it does have a lot of drag. Dead Downwind in light air I can pass 16 foot centerboard dinghies with nothing but the main, but upwind, while it points alright, it's just plain slow.

    I've also noticed that in strong winds, performance is best with one reef and the white radial jib. If I double reef and hoist the storm jib, the performance is abysmal.

    The flag is going to be moving to a staff on the transom. It drives me nuts right now, being hoisted to the position of the nonexistant "Starboard Spreader", frequently going across through the mess of lines to the wrong side. Not sure where I will put the club Burgee yet when I move the flag. Maybe I'll just slap it to a tiny extension on top of the mast. More drag!

    I did a quick test on a tapered fiberglass mast and the steel mast, and the heeling moment on the two masts is the same. Not sure where to get a lighter unstayed mast short of going carbon. I would want to add a track to the glass mast and chop the top three feet off to get it down to the 12 feet(from the keel) of the existing mast, so I suspect that would keep roughly the same heeling moment as the steel mast now. Here you see the disadvantage of unstayed masts! More weight up high, and a larger mast!

    I've been considering a deck-sweeping jib, but I would need to relocate the jib sheets to a new location, as they are toward the back of the boat right now. I could use the spinnaker sheets for my existing sails if I want to use them. (I have 6 jibs and Genoas all designed to use the current sheeting position.)

    The code zero/drifter was designed for extremely light air usage and to be used at all angles of sail, hence the flat cut.

    Both the Jib and the Spinnaker have individual halyards and tack lines(horizontal halyards to bring the clew out to the bow) so I just release those two lines and pull on the sheet and the sail comes right back into my lap. The hardest part of sail changes is keeping everything organized in a tiny space, while still sailing the boat. I can completely hoist and stow any and all sails while underway with out any outside help, except for the top 4 feet of the mainsail, because it has a 4 foot rod sewn into the luff of the sail.

    Because the keel is so far forward, and the mast is not farther forward as well, she has a lot of weather helm to start with, so I'm not too concerned about the helm just yet with the code zero/drifter. That's why I'm reefing the main all the way to the storm reef before changing out the jib.
    I'll have to test out the drifter and report back on how it actually does.
     
  4. The Q
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    The Q Senior Member

    I find your efforts interesting and useful as I design the rig for my own 16ft boat, sheltered water sailing causes some problems with design where I sail draft is normally about 3 ft maybe 4ft if you only sail in sheltered but open water like this one.

    http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv80/PeterWaller/P8270089.jpg
    yes that's about 30ft-35ft of hull and 84ft of mast!! but a shallow draft. ( I've just had a re read of some of this class and these extreme members of the class may have a draft of 5ft but that severely limits their sailing areas)

    I can only go to 3ft Draft, and need a tall rig to get wind above the river banks and trees but 2.5 times hull length may be a bit too much.

    Oh and many True Norfolk Broads boats have their keel forward or Sail area aft to help with going to windward
     
  5. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I can imagine these boats have a very limited range of stability, or a wide Beam, or both. Except with multihulls mast height should be determined by Beam, not Length.

    A good example of this would be your humble pdracers which are scows with an 8ft Length and a 4ft Beam. Many of them have masts that are more twice as high as the boat is long.

    Supposing these boats have a 14 ft Beam and a LOT of ballast, the 84 ft high mast does not seem so unreasonable. They could have at least half their total weight slung under the hull as ballast, in the form of a long keel, about the only option for sailing in shallow waters with a huge rig. Say these boats displace around 16,000 lbs, and at least half of that is ballast. Most if not all this ballast is on the bottom of the keel, in a long, shallow slug, that is say 1 ft tall. It would be about 2 ft below the WL and maybe 1.5 ft below the VCB (Vertical Center of Buoyancy). That would give it 12,000 ft/lbs of righting moment against a carbon fiber mast which might weigh 150 lbs, so has a say a 6,300 ft/lb capsize moment. Doesn't seem so unreasonable now. Still, it's a bit scary.
     
  6. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    Where I sail there is usually very light wind to none at all. The lake level is also 5 feet low, so we have about 2 feet of water in a 20 foot wide strip down one side of the channel. The marina itself (where the slips and ramps are) is closer to 3 or 4 feet. The cruisers there at the marina draft up to 5.5 feet, so most of them are completely useless and have long been pulled out for winter storage. It's also at higher elevation (4500 ft) so the air isn't as dense. I've been told you need about 15% more sail for the same power at this elevation. Couple that with light wind... You get the picture. Ability to drop the draft of the boat way way down(to under 1 foot if possible) to get in and out of places (under motor is fine) and then sail around all day drafting less than 4 feet in the open lake with a huge light air rig is important.
     
  7. The Q
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    The Q Senior Member

    I don't know the exact beam but it is likely to be around 8 ft almost certainly less than 10ft I've never seen a Norfolk broads sailing cruiser anywhere near 14ft wide.
    Take this one,http://www.nationalhistoricships.or...ermark&f=/data/nrhv/vessels/1934_MAIDIE_1.jpg This is Madie built 1934, she has not gone down the modern rig route even though she races in the same handicap class. she is 43 ft long a beam of 8ft 4inches and a gross tonnage of 3 tons, This http://broadland.rightboatexpert.com/api/images/42182/800x330 is about as long as it gets for a keel on the broads.

    My own boat is 4ft wide and sit in like yours, steer with my feet. The projected displacement is somewhat heavier than yours at .363 of a ton according to Freeship. She definately leans more towards a 2.4 M in displacement. Her keel is a wide Fin of 30 inches X 30inches giving me a draft of 3 ft, with A separate lifting rudder(spitfire wing shape) hangs under the stern through a box. The latest iteration for the mast is a sliding gunter with a curved gaff, giving a total height of about 22ft. I had to keep every thing less than 18ft for transport back from Saudi where I built her, So on her trailer she would fit in a 20ft container without me being there to move her mast forward over the trailer hitch. She was originally built at 18ft length but with provision for cutting this down to 16ft, should I have to change classes at the sailing club which I am now doing.
     
  8. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    Can you post some pictures?
     
  9. The Q
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    The Q Senior Member

    No Photos at the moment, I didn't have a camera in Saudi. Now shes been dragged out of the shed she was living in, I've built a large wooden framework to hold the two halves in the correct relationship to each other when I make the final cut, so that it's simple to push them back together. The framework is roofed over with a combination of timber and tarpaulin to keep the rain off. I'll see what I can do to get pictures of at the weekend but the weather forecast doesn't look good.

    She was built with a lifting centre plate (not when sailing) due to the shallow baech where I sailed out there. However I don't need that facility here so the section being removed includes the centerboard box, the keel will have a T plate welded on top and it will be bolted across the join with suitable reinforcement inside the hull.
    Being unable to get marine ply out in Saudi she was built with cheap ply glassed inside and out. This however does mean it's taking quite a long time to strip and prepare the relevant surfaces for joining as the epoxy out there was made for repairing the big oil tanks and not necessarily compatible with what I can get here.

    (The Baech is a clue to where I mostly sailed to those in the know!!)
     
  10. The Q
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    The Q Senior Member

    No photos yet a combination of bad weather and having to attend my model railway clubs summer get together , beer, steam trains (small), its a hard life....

    Anyway I've just come across this,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzaay1fRpss
    Which shows this years regatta week at my sailing club. so you can see where I intend to sail my boat. the video gives the impression that each class of boats is out on its own, but actually they all go out together at five minute intervals which can lead to 150 boats out over 1.5 mile of river at the same time, with the tourist boats wandering around the edges (hopefully) . There can be Broads cruisers as well, 30 -35ft hull yacht with a tall mast.!
    There are 136 miles of river like this with the broads give more open sailing as well.

    I'm the reprobate in the rescue boat with the black hat, my crew mate has just dashed in to get us a coffee before we set out again.
    For the last ten years, I used to sail the Yeoman class which are the 20ft boats with a bulge under the mast and a Y on the sail. Although I've sailed all the classes except Toppers and Oppies.
     
  11. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    The glorious Maidie was built in 1904, not 1934.
    She's had a good few rigs in her time, including modern carbon bermudan as well as the old gaff one.

    http://www.nationalhistoricships.or...watermark&f=/data/nrhv/vessels/0_MAIDIE_3.jpg

    http://www.nationalhistoricships.or...watermark&f=/data/nrhv/vessels/0_MAIDIE_5.jpg

    http://www.nationalhistoricships.or...watermark&f=/data/nrhv/vessels/0_MAIDIE_6.jpg

    Best not to be too dogmatic when it comes to boats, especially boats that race in unusual venues: the broads racers carry enormous amounts of sail, and may have to reef down in very low wind strengths, but when so often you're sailing on tree lined rivers every bit of mast height helps.

    The Thames Raters are another class which have what the uninitiated would assume were absurdly tall rigs.

    http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/cvdra/yandy41653.jpg
     
  12. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Didn't mean to seem dogmatic. Just trying to point out that the rig height to Beam ratio is more important with monohulls than the rig height to Length.

    You can have as tall and high AR rig as you want, as long as you can make it stand up to the available wind.

    It must be something sailing on these boats. They probably move right out with the mere rumor of wind.

    I suppose one has to be very careful to control the heel angle, or the boat could have a real tendency to round up into the wind.
     
  13. rcnesneg
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    rcnesneg Senior Member

    Yep. My pocket yacht runs around 3-3.5 feet wide, and is 8 feet long with a 10 foot(above deck) mast. Above 10 mph of wind I have to start reefing her down or she just won't stand up to the wind. Once she heels over to about 35 to 45 degrees, you just lose steering and round up. I've also got a fair bit of weather helm to start with, so it's not really surprising.
     
  14. The Q
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    The Q Senior Member

    Woops sorry about the typo on the date, I should have known better I had been to dinner where her restoration had been spoken about..
     

  15. The Q
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    The Q Senior Member

    And now a couple of poor pictures taken on my tablet computer, with the threat of more rain the covers weren't coming right off,

    IMG_20150923_160004[1].jpg the stern, this will eventually be sign written with BLUE MOON and قمر أزرق beneath it, the hatch cover above the stern is the old centre hatch cover, the proper one for the stern is in the workshop at the moment.

    IMG_20150923_160206.jpg the bow with the old Keel leaning against it.


    IMG_20150923_160012.jpg down the side of the boat with some of the framing holding it all together, there is not much left of the middle of the boat at the moment.

    I hope these pictures work, if is does there are promises of dry weather this weekend so I may be able to get more / better pictures
     
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