Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
    Posts: 3,590
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    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    Well, I'm, afraid that 4 pages in (5 now) and I'm still unable to vote, and doubt really that I could. It's simply too broad a question... you can't reasonably decide on the inclusions any vesell should have until you have a sensible mission statement for it. Choosing the fitout before the SOR is like buying baby clothes before you know if you're having a boy or (god forbid;)) a girl...
     
  2. Maddie
    Joined: Jan 2010
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 17
    Location: Trinidad & Tobago

    Maddie Junior Member

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cthippo View Post
    Well, I have been looking at the latter in other contexts...
    I'm not sure what the answer to that is but I know there is one because they don't leave port full of fish. Maybe they carry a lot of ballast and replace it with fish as they catch them. There are also some boats designed for low volume, high value catches, such as lobster or salmon. In these the cargo weight is not a significant fraction of the overall vessel weight.

    Not saying it's an automatic conversion, only that it can and has been done and a significantly lower price and a new construction.

    apex1:
    If you don´t know whats the anwer, how can you come to such a statement, that boats are carrying ballast to be replaced by catch?

    Why do you state: T
    Quote:
    here are also some boats designed for low volume, high value catches,

    apex1
    Have you personally been on them? Are they, what you would call a "minimum passagemaker" ???


    Having a opinion is right and welcome, statements should be backed by experience though.............




    TO APEX1



    Just asking.

    Do you really feel that your way is the only way?

    I for one, live at present in what might be considered primitive conditions. Yes, electricity and internet, but bucket baths, outdoor composting toilet, no electrical appliances, basic furniture, and I'm quite happy. A very basic passagemaker would suit me fine. I have been on workboats and do not miss any luxuries, once I have good hot food, a warm dry bed and some space.

    There are many ways to live and our boats reflect them.


    The last line is amusing.

    Do you mean, " you can think whatever you want, but don't say anything"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  3. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Your insulting comment did not help anyone. Do not put words in my mouth, however amusing it may be for you.

    The "POOR MANS PASSAGEMAKER" is a dumb and premature pipe dream. Afford it, to go to sea, or stay at your local camp ground.

    Yessss, you and your supporters know better, I am aware.
    Fortunately we will never meet you on the open ocean......:p

    Richard
     
  4. Wavewacker
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 696
    Likes: 21, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 226
    Location: Springfield, Mo.

    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Hey Richard, who the hell do you think you are? I've been on hundreds of sites on various topics and all seem to have there resident "experts" but none seem to come across as such a blatant inconsiderate, egotistical snot as you do. I'm beginning to believe that you are a has been and really a patient in a mental ward, you should surely be under the care of a shirnk....and if you're not, find one, if you are, find a better one.

    I just got an email that a comment had been made and got here only to find your rude opinionated snotty comments. Which is also the reason I left sometime ago, this just reminds me of why I left.

    If I ever do come back and post a question, please don't reply in the thread. Ever! Seems you can set the rules for your posts (as well as for others) so that's my request. I'm not interested in hearing your opinion on anything, not because you might not know what you're talking about, but because you are the least civil snot here and reading between your expertise and ranting comments just isn't worth my time!
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Thank you for that,

    especially in the lights of your psychological expertise.
    I will try to improve my manners, my skills, and my ability to shoot a ***** like you, straight into eternity. But do not expect I am good at the first try.

    Richard
     
  6. Mat-C
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 255
    Likes: 12, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 141
    Location: Australia

    Mat-C Senior Member

    Well... nobody could accuse you of sitting on the fence!!:D
    But whilst I always respect your experienced input, I have to ask what brings you to this conclusion....
    There are myriad books, magazine articles etc etc detailing succesful, offshore passagemaking cruises in all manner of inexpensive craft - both power and sail. I was only reading the first part of a multi-part one yesterday in a british mag, MBY, in which a couple are cruising the world on a 100,000 pound budget - and that included the purchase and refurbishment of the boat....
     
  7. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    for an ocean capable motor boat, with enough tank capacity, for fuel and water, enough space for a full size engine room with complete work shop, including lathe, enough space for month of garbage storage, i don't see smaller than 50' if the displacement is high, longer can be lighter.
    anyway it is a fair amount of money to spend.
     
  8. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    probably sail will be cheaper, but i don't know
     
  9. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,519
    Likes: 109, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    for fuel and water, enough space for a full size engine room with complete work shop, including lathe, enough space for month of garbage storage, i don't see smaller than 50' if the displacement is high, longer can be lighter.
    anyway it is a fair amount of money to spend.


    And a bunch of sail folks have done fine circumnavigations in 20 ft boats , tho about 35 is the more common.


    Perhaps giving up the deep freezer , hot tub and sat phone makes life easier?

    FF
     
  10. cthippo
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 736
    Likes: 35, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 465
    Location: Bellingham WA

    cthippo Senior Member

    I don't know about that last one. The Iridiums aren't much larger than a regular call, and with a solar charger and too much money you could talk plenty.
     
  11. larry larisky

    larry larisky Previous Member

    i was talking about a serious passagemaker, safe and comfortable, self sustain for long period of time.
    and i didn't suggest deep freeze nor the hot tub, nor the sat phone, due to the high energy demand of these features.
    the lathe and drill press can be powered by a small one cylinder air cooled hatz engine, so no demand on high energy from the power source for these tools.
    these tools are extremely useful and are used for a short period of time.
    i am talking of a boat the owner will keep for very long time of course and useful also when the owner enter is 70th birthday.
    the age of the owner and his physical ability is too often left out of the equation.
    i suggest also a chart room, or space, well equipped with paper chart and a good sextant, and a recording barometer.
    every body knows the 14' sail boat designed by jay benford which did a circumnavigation. no big news.
     
  12. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Hmm, yes myriads of articles and books, almost all of them off topic.

    Lets get that straight:

    This thread has it´s roots here:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-style-within-genre-34092.html
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-ii-building-material-34265.html
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-iii-propulsion-34334.html
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-iv-equipment-34464.html

    where the boats we discuss will start at above 2mio € when done to fit the requirements. (and even then they are cheap)

    The term "passagemaker" refers to a motorboat, capable of long trips over the oceans. It was first brought up by Robert Beebe, and since it is used for such craft only. (at least in the professional world)
    Hence we are talking motorboats only when we say passagemaker.

    The fact, that the vessels discussed on my threads have been restricted to a size above some 22meters, with a price tag accordingly, there was a understandable demand, to bring another "class" into discussion. Two other threads were opened, this is one of them.

    Now when we look at a boat of a decent size, providing all a couple would need for worldwide cruising, we are quickly in the region above 50ft or 15meter again. If some speed is a requirement we break the 60ft or 18m treshold easily.

    A well built, substantially equipped boat of 50ft would come out at around 500k €, or 675k $, the 60ft well above one mio$.
    That would be the "poor mans passagemaker"

    All the other boats discussed here, are either second hand craft, which do not fit the bill right from the start, or just small sailing boats which are not the topic.

    We know there have been smaller boats in the 40ft range going around once, but these are by no means liveaboards, for long ocean passages. They have uncomfortable behaviour (dangerous), and insufficient speed, to name only two restrictive features. Even the 50ft class is in my opinion far too small (short).

    So, where was the point you wanted to contradict?

    Regards
    Richard
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Actually the results of the poll look pretty realistic. Most of the yachts I see sailing around the world are in the 30 to 40 ft range and very simple. Good design, good diesel engine. These 30 to 40 footers are nice because they must not rely on any complex systems. This means that the average Joe can afford to buy the best equipment for whatever system is deemed mission critical, such as Sat com C or saftey gear or engine. The 30 to 40 ft's also are safer. Virtually every harbour is built for small fishing boats. 30 to 40ft yachts can sneak into these harbors for shelter....bigger boats cant and must stand offshore or proceed to a bigger port for shelter .
     
  14. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    What YOU see are sailing boats, if any. And the average range WE see on the common barefoot routes, are way bigger than the size you mention. Why don´t you keep your mouth shut, as asked so often now, by several experienced members. You have no idea about sailing.
     

  15. Mat-C
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 255
    Likes: 12, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 141
    Location: Australia

    Mat-C Senior Member

    With the greatest respect Richard - and I do respect your opinion - I still can't understand your view on this. Nobody is suggesting that YOU would want to cruise the world on a 35 foot, 15 year old motorboat. I wouldn't either! But there is ample evidence of people doing so everyday - just because they didn't buy new, or because they have to travel at 6 knots, it doesn't mean their efforts should be dismissed as being unworthy.
    The opening post - quoted above - makes no mention of having to buy new - indeed, quite the opposite - it asks what is the MINIMUM required for thie journey. Ok - we understand what your idea of the minimum is - but again - does that relagate all other passagemakers obsolete or unworthy?
     
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