Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,865
    Likes: 88, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1146
    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    David, having commited my soul to the deep on too many ocassions on other peoples so called well quipped and well prepared vessels, i will not venture on a blue water trip unless it meets my requirements on safety. It amazes me what people go to sea in and how poorely equipped they are. Needless to say i don't do many blue water trips on other peoples boats. Minimum requirements on a blue water motorsailer are as i listed above and am very serious about this thru the school of hard knocks, even though more people drown along the coast than out on the deep blue. I am presently building a motorsailer and she will have the above specs. If i go down it will not be from the faults of the machine, I've always described the proper blue water sailing craft as a floating submarine, one can compromise on size but never on quality,(wow there's words of wisdom). Anyhow buddy if you sail with George, there's even a offshore survival suit in the locker for you, right next to the El Dorado Rum. cheers , Geo.
     
  2. u4ea32
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 416
    Likes: 14, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 192
    Location: Los Angeles

    u4ea32 Senior Member

    I find ultra light displacement (D/L << 100) race boats very safe blue water boats. Not what I would live on, but they will get you around Cape Horn, perhaps better than heavier boats because of the substantially reduced loads (shock loads are high on the crew, but the rig and structure loads are low).

    Again, I agree with everything you said George, for your really good or "perfect" passagemaker, you are doing the right stuff.

    For me, I need a boat that will be substantially cheaper to operate than any sailboat. The cost of a suit of sails every five to ten years simply cannot be ignored: a suit for a, say, 5000 lbs displacement boat will be a small fraction of the cost of the sails for a 50000 lbs boat, but even the $25000 suit for the 5000 lbs boat will be a big hit on retirement income.

    I agree the cost of fuel is substantially less on sailboats: your 30% figure is reasonable for motorsailing. But 50% is already what you get simply by going for a true displacement hull with the transom clear of the waterline, over an immersed transom boat, at sub hull speed. And fuel consumption at displacement speeds is very closely and linearly correlated to displacement: a 5000 lbs boat burns 10% as much fuel as the 50000 boat, if both are the same length. Here's a specific number for you: a 8 man rowing shell (2000 lbs going down the course), 65 feet long, requires 4 HP to go 14 knots. Even with the low fuel efficiency of small diesels, that's over 50 miles per gallon at 14 knots.

    So for minimum cost of operation, its got to be a displacement hull, double ended or with transom clear of the water, with minimum displacement, maximum length, and just enough beam and hull depth to carry the stuff you need. Anything more than that, and it aint a minimum passagemaker.

    Perhaps a substantially better passagemaker, but not a minimal one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2011
  3. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,865
    Likes: 88, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1146
    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    Have you decided on a particular vessel yet. I am always interested and intrigued in experimenting with a challenge of minimum but safe and comfortable. You say no sails but in order to achieve total economy one has to make use of natures power. How about this idea, for the price of one new sail you could probably buy enought used stetched racing sails to last you for 20yrs.. I do it on a regular basis mostly from the Star class racing boats. The sails are still like new but the sport is so competitive that the competers just literally throw away perfectly good sails. Geo.

    The definition of a yacht is not determined by the vessel but the care and love of her owner.
     
  4. wardd
    Joined: Apr 2009
    Posts: 897
    Likes: 37, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 442
    Location: usa

    wardd Senior Member

    an atkins modified friar tuck with a single engine seems to fit the bill
     
  5. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,865
    Likes: 88, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1146
    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    Well, theres a design that should be easily driven. Also a design that would lend itself to a drop centerboard say in stainless and install an alum. communications/ radar mast say 25 to 30ft. stick on a loose fitted main and a furling jib and you got yoursel a neat little motorsailing rig that'll get you home if you run into engine problems or save alot on fuel by motorsailing. Just an old motorsailing guy, Geo.
     
  6. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 98, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1151
    Location: USA

    BATAAN Senior Member

    Salty friend said to me long ago:
    "Never go to sea in a boat you wouldn't be proud to have as a coffin."
    Still true today.
     
  7. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,865
    Likes: 88, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1146
    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    Ok, what piece of written intake inticed you to make that quote ? Surely it wouldn't have been my suggestion of addition a rig to the Friar Tuck. Actually i did it in jest but come to think of it a 25ft. mast with a cargo lifting boom and a mount the for vhf ant. up a little higher would not be a bad addition. In an emergency a jury rigged sail could be a good back up. Wardd stated single engine as such he might want to install a keel to facilitate the shaft log, IE better protection for the shaft and prop. So no real need for a drop centerboard. Geo.

    A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the bare and love of her owner.
     
  8. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 98, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1151
    Location: USA

    BATAAN Senior Member

    The coffin quote applies to all vessels on all waters at all times, not specifically the designs under discussion. I think it was originally spoken to caution those who take less than ideal care of their vessels or are sloppy in their seamanship, whether TITANIC or canoe. If the user really understands and cares for his boat, the likelihood of its ending up as their coffin is small, but can serve its real use, joy.
     
  9. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 27, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    Some would say <removed>

     
  10. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 2,570
    Likes: 119, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1650
    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    A bit short range to be one :rolleyes:
     
  11. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,865
    Likes: 88, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1146
    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    Battan, so right you are, seen so many rich boy want to impress, beautiful vessels just literally falling into disrepair once they have completed their mission, it makes me sick.
    Regarding the big debate on the cat being a qualified passagemaker, Now i'm a monohull man to the nth degree but also being a good historian,(polynesians) open minded,and not a bad judge of the capabilites of seagoing craft i would have to say yes it is a passagemaker and not a bad one at that. However let me qualify here like many monohulls, there are good and bad cat designs. Properly designed,(very strongly built against torque flexing, A little on the heavy side,keeping the superstructure low, no flying bridges). The recent floating house design have given cats a bad name but a well built cat under an experienced cat, captain can get the job done and done safely. Yes they are more subject to loss in bad weather and we have to be honest here,on a ratio basis no worst than badly engineered and built so called monohull passagemakers. Their disadvantages are somwhat compensated for by the fact that their speed can often get them out of harms way given the time factor with modern advanced forcasts, more so than their slower monohull cousins. multi hulls have the advantage that they have the ability to stay afloat in most cases even while inverted,(stick with the ship awaiting rescue)(Phil Weld and Moxy) and there have been many cases where in a train of waves a successive wave has righted the hull again. Overall i feel they are well suited to both short and long distance travel. Geo.

    A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the love and care of her owner.
     
  12. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 98, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1151
    Location: USA

    BATAAN Senior Member

    Some neighbors built a 35' cruising sailing cat to an Australian design, moderately conservative with a single spreader sloop rig, in SF bay. Then, with their 2 children made multiple trips to Mexico, then set out around the world. My wife, son and I flew to the Marquesas for a couple weeks of sailing with them and found this small, minimalist cat a very comfy cruiser. IMANI went on to complete their trip around and are back in SF planning the next cruise. I know little of cats but sensible ones seem to work just fine.
     
  13. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,865
    Likes: 88, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 1146
    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    CRUSING(passagemaker) CATS

    While i realize this is not 1000mile legs here's an example of a small home built cat, family of 5, making a crediable trip in 1992. 26ft.cat homebuilt in B.C. trailered to Tampa, thru the Okeechobee to Riviera Beach, to The Bahamas, to Nassau, to Georgetown in the Exumas, return trip Nassau, to Chub Kay, to Cat Cays back to Riviera Beach, trailed back to B.C.
    Article Crusing World, may 1992. Have hardcopy if anyone would like info. Geo.

    A yacht is not defined by the vessel but by the love and care of her owner
     

    Attached Files:

  14. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 1,614
    Likes: 98, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1151
    Location: USA

    BATAAN Senior Member

    They totally figured it out, most experience and joy and adventure possible for the least investment. Thanks.
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well,

    not really,

    we agreed to talk motoryachts, not drying laundry, when "passagemaker" was the topic. (as old Beebe thought)

    But I understand it is hard to grasp........
    as the Viking and the u4ea32
    "Senior Member"
    (amongst others) prove......

    Regards
    Richard
     
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