Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    There's one flaw with such consept.. it's not one.
    If we reduce the range down to suggested 2500nm, there's dozens and dozens of different boat types capable for that and they have allready specific name they are called.

    Another point, there's a difference btw a passage and a passagemaker. Many boat's are capable for making certain passages, but few are capable of making whatever passage, and that's the spirit of a passagemaker. To define a minimum passagemaker is to have this excact reguirement and forget the rest..
     
  2. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Location: Duluth, Minnesota

    Steve W Senior Member

    Teddy, im not sure what you think those 2500nm range boats are called but it is not "coastal cruiser" or "island hopper"
    Steve.
     
  3. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    Yes, I know it has flopper stoppers, but they are flopper stoppers
    You said stabiliser, which it does not have.
    I provided a picture of this as proof.

    The drag on my 2 hulls with a 1.2 BWL on 15m will probably be less than the drag of your one mono-hull
    Plus I will not have the additional drag of your flopper stopper or stabiliser
     
  4. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
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    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    If you do not know that flopper stoppers are stabilizers we have a problem.


    You can believe what you want to believe I guess.
     
  5. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Most sailboats known as cruisers, racer/cruisers are in this range. Small and medium size motorsailors. Most of the sailing cats. Better part of the larger motorcats. Lot of trawlers etc..
    Think about if the boat is designed to do an ocean crossing occasionally maybe with some preparations, a certain route with additional stops on the way.. or whenever to whereever straight to destination..
     
  6. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Location: Duluth, Minnesota

    Steve W Senior Member

    Most sailboats regardless of what you want to call them are not in this range,rather, they have infinite range because they are "sailboats". But were not talking sailboats are we. Most powerboats, whatever you want to call them are not even close to to a 2500nm range and could not even be retrofitted to do so,which is why among other reasons of course,they (unlike cruiser/racer sailboats) could never make ocean passages.I think Bebbe recomended a minimum of 2400nm but what would he know. There ARE boats that are designed to go wherever,whenever, ive seen them called Expedition yachts but they are a whole other level above what Bebbe termed a passagemaker and far away from a "minimum passagemaker".
    Steve.
     
  7. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    What comes to sailboats the range limit doesn't come from the means how the thrust is produced. It's everything else. You can't run the electronics without fuel and can't eat only fish. And tankage and storage room is quite limited in most modern sailboats (mono or cat not much difference).
    What Bebbe said a long long time ago was infact that a motorboat can be a passagemaker (that was not the case allways) The range he stated was ok in the past but hey.. it's been some development since..
     
  8. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Expedition yacht is wherever, whenever, whatever (=do different things) :)
    Larger crew, divers, scientist etc..
     
  9. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
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    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    There is a grey area between Steve W and Ted Diver. Saying a range of what every is a little vague without also stating what S/L ratio we want that at. To me as a minimum I would want a 2500 nm range with 15% reserve at an S/L ratio of 1.2. That would include power for A/C, refrigeration and the likes as well as runing stabilzation. Even so its going to cost you more money to travel the Pacific as you will be not be able to go direct to some of the desired destination and will have to return on a longer route. Jump that to 3,200 NM at an S/L of 1.2 and you will save money.
     
  10. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Location: Duluth, Minnesota

    Steve W Senior Member

    Teddy, sailboats as small as 21ft have sailed NON STOP around the globe in the southern ocean, now that as long a passage as you are likeley to do and far more than any mono or multi passagemaker will ever do, so their ability to carry sufficient stores and produce energy etc is not as limited as you may imagine but this thread is the Minimum passagemaking motorboats.
    I dont think the world has gotten any bigger since Bebbe was passagemaking so i think his range suggestion should be fine.
    Steve.
     
  11. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    And rowboats have crossed Atlantic nonstop (and rafts, inflatables etc).
    Beebe... the world has became smaller, engines more efficient and giving a name to a boat is the only way to turn 2500nm boat to a "passagemaker", anyway that's what Beebe did ;) (just joking)
    Why you don't take a better look at the "passagemaker" and take into account all it's characteristics instead of making an argument of it's designed range which, by the way proved to be some 3200nm which is much better (4000nm/6.8kn ! ). The very same boat with new propulsion train could easily do 5000nm..
     
  12. u4ea32
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: Los Angeles

    u4ea32 Senior Member

    I think catamarans are a great way to go, but they are more than the minimum.

    Let's all agree that "minimum" means minimum cost to purchase/build, operate, and repair (let's skip resale, only because nobody really knows, and because passagemaking may generally happen following retirement and therefore its just the heirs that lose out), for a minimum amount of stuff in the boat (systems, people, stores).

    With this definition of minimum, a light displacement monohull is clearly the choice. If one has more than the minimum money for purchase/operations/maintenance, and has requirements for more than the minimum amount of stuff in the boat, then a heavier displacement and/or multiple engines and/or multiple hulls may become appropriate.

    But "minimum" means "nothing else can be sacrificed."

    Right?

    If we agree on this, then we can debate the characteristics of the boat. If we want to move off minimum, then the trade space opens up so much that who knows what is best.
     
  13. apex1

    apex1 Guest

     
  14. viking north
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    Location: Newfoundland & Nova Scotia

    viking north VINLAND

    I have skimmed thru much of the thread and like most it travels from the clouds to heaven then down into the depts of hell and back. I have posted my opinion on this in several threads the latest being on the zinc thread.
    Now to the topic at hand, a quick survey of the thread places the opening specs too broad, The thread could have been more productive if broken into catagories,IE, crusing power boat,crusing sailboat, and each then broken down into displacement catagories. My opinion on the best passagemaker a properly built motorsailer as big as you can afford to build,convert,or buy,and one person can handle safely because when the going gets tought that is lifes reality, money and a lone operator. Anything outside of that is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.Why heavy displacement, a light boat at sea in my opinion is dangerious.Why a motorsailer, it has two things going for it, a proper wheelhouse for protection from the elements and visibility both the top requirements for survival and it is the most economical and safe vessel to operate overall all, The most bang for your buck in displacement,comforth and safety. You've got more room for living space and add on's than a standard sailing hull, and with motor assisted sailing three time the economy of a power boat running the same engine. Let me clairfy here on the proper motorsailer as i see it, more old style than modern,(higher wheel house) full style keel,(better handling angular climbing big seas and running with it) fiberglass hull (strong,low maintenance,ease of repair). Must be able to go to winward to a degree of safety without the engine. Have at least two 100% effective watertight doors, cockpit to wheelhouse, wheelhouse to main cabin. All electrical/electronic feeds to the wheelhouse must be thru a disconnect subpanel (wheelhouse feeds) from the main cabin and duplications of essential comm. and nav. gear wheelhouse/ main cabin.(all this incase the wheelhouse which is suseptiable to damage becomes damaged) Fuel capacity should be enought to cover 50% of the distance, water similar backed up by a watermaker. Manual,electric and engine assist bilge pump systems with an emergency hull breach repair kit.(lets see what would i need on board to jam that cushion over a hole) Good comm. gear vhf,sideband,sat. phone,ham.(budget permitting). Nav. gear,all the tools of dead reconing with gps,radar,t. as quick references and backup. Heads with holding tank/pump out set up. a good functional galley with a microwave/convection set up(frills you say,ask the cook)along with GPS this is the other great modern boat invention. Good comfortable sleeping and bathroom facilities for two is essential. On deck, furling main and headsail, but a minimum a furling headsail with the best(basic, strong) and one size over furling gear. and a full batten main with lazyjacks. A good oversize electric/manual anchor windlass, two oversize main anchors,(one in spares) two good lunch hooks.Most of the rest of the thread list are frills but then I will stand corrected. Geo
     

  15. u4ea32
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    Location: Los Angeles

    u4ea32 Senior Member

    I think you have provided a lot of good items for a "Best Passagemaker" but I think you've gone far beyond "Minimum Passagemaker."

    http://cruisingamerica-halcyondays.com/

    The above link describes a 10 year cruise on a 22 foot C-Dory. I think they may be demonstrating a minimum passagemaker.
     
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