Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Of course Landlubber..and I have full on , all weather wheelhouse electronics. As I said , old habits die hard and old habits are good seamanship.
    Remember I get paid to do this, so no shortcuts with your boat !!! and if it takes another day, I make more money !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, Many times...most times, I sail with a crew of amateurs. When Im lucky these amateurs are smart ,Yachtmaster, mile builder type young people who sail for me..at very, very low wage...pocket change plus a few cans of tuna and a candy bar, in exchange for the sea time they need for a license. These young amateur watchkeeprs may make a mistake. And these amateur watchkeeprs must be shown how to minimize the consequences of mistakes. As a result I do many things so that they may see first hand. Classic Seamanship...If you look at a modern course book for young sailors the book has nothing in it. No defensive seamanship.

    Gps, radar, chart plotters, forward sonar..all that stuff allows me to operate in an unnatural way. From time to time I get caught out and my heart skips a beat as I cheat death one more time. . This past spring on a trip from Istanbul the Athens...in very rugged conditions with poor to zero visibility we surfed thru Andros Channel with the intention of calling it quits for the night and taking shelter in the all weather harbour of Gavrion. We approached GAVRION harbour..radar, way points..the full routine...The lights were not visible thru the rain so we approaching with radar and GPS. With the radar I could identify an indentation on the coast profile indicating the harbour entrance.. its dead centered on the waypoint , so I steam forth. Still no lights and the radar reflection, showing the coast profile, is not opening up the harbour entrance. The wind is howling, rain pouring down, windscreen wipers working overtime , We triple check the waypoint ..still no harbour entrance. 2 tenths of a mile from the radar harbour entrance shore profile....and we are in breakers smashing into the rocks.. white water all around, panic, about face steam offshore, heart beating a million miles per hour..Whats up. Well, you become so used to navigating with WGS84 datum that you never check the chart datum on the new chart you just point and clicked onto the plotter. Garvion harbour is EuropenDatum 1950. a few tenths of a mile makes big difference. You may be a wise guy and check every detail of you nav system settings everytime you perform a manuver but, unfortunaly I dont believe you.

    Classic seamanship would have be to stand offshore, hove too for however long it takes until visibility improved then run in on the lights. Gps makes you superman..or Icarus.flying to close to the sun.
    I can also tell you about the time the Chart plotter boat and forward COG course line, in bright sunlight , obscuring a depth profile number to make 3.8 meter appear 8.8 , leading me into a full speed standing jibe escape ,as the helmsman visually saw water colour go DANGER tone. Im 4 metes deep.

    Oh and the original title of this thread was pasagemaker design, not my peculair seamanship habits.
    An inshore passagemaker must have a superior wheelhouse nav station setup. Superior..including near verticle GLASS, optically pure, wheelhouse windows for max visability in bright sun , rain or night navigation and the nav station itself must have full BLACK OUT shields to remove al light distraction at night
     
  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Which sort of nonsense is that again? Inshore passagemaker? Don´t you get the meaning of that term "passagemaker" ? It is used for motoryachts capable of circumnavigating, and so it was meant when Mydauphin opened the thread. No sailing boats, no canal cruisers.

    The Gavrio approach cannot be missed easily btw. the entrance is unique in the entire region. And passing through Cavo d'Oro in severe conditions is already finicky in bright daylight, let alone in conditions you drivel about.
     
  3. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
    Posts: 2,640
    Likes: 124, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1802
    Location: Brisbane

    Landlubber Senior Member

    OK Michael, in a teaching environment i understand the detail, there is no doubt that caution is of the upmost and brain pwer overrukles any electronics, also the cost/time factor of being paid to be 3 to 9 hours different does not apply if time is no problem.

    I guess it is nice that someone cares about teaching techniques that err on the caution side of life instead of going gungho with bloody gps....maybe I am that way inclined too, as I only go in shipping chanels( to the extreme edges) in foreigh ports...just in case...you know that you will not run out of water.
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    That was the hint, brain power.

    Michael has none. He tells us that he has half a million miles under the belt, but does not know about a safe approach on a tricky Greek port?

    He names ports, harbours, a amateurs fault.
    himself a Captain, a amateurs fault,
    a bunkering station, gas station, a amateurs fault,

    he provides tales of a trip, no sane master would have ever considered, or had a problem with.

    This is another *******, many miles on the dream lane, and much to drivel along. But when it comes to prove it, nothing left, just tales and blabber.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  5. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, I see you made a big effort to accuse me. much less of a effort to provide anything valuable.

    You choose to name me ****,
    seems you are quite familiar with twats?

    *********, I will tell you what: you have not got the sense of the thread!

    Minimal passagemaker is not like YOU would define it. It has no sails, it is no Catshit, it has ocean capabilities and it has at least the capability to cope with a tender. YOUR dream boat obviously was not designed to sail oceans.....:D

    Stay out of the adults playground, if you don´t have to provide more than offense.

    Go, play with your dumb cat (which is more stable upside down), and dream about telling the professionals why the water boils.

    Call me whinger, ****, or what you like. Sure you know more about being a ****, than I do, ppsst, pppt, pss.

    Richard
    pssspt
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    What a shame
    That grandiose twit apex is back and being as offensive as ever

    Oh well, at least it was quiet for a couple of days while it was hiding under its rock


    After reading page after page of your offensive drivel someone gives a bit back and richard cries like a whiney little *****

    In your opinion, which means little.

    They are easily spotted richard
    Look for yourself
    [​IMG]

    Here he goes with his delusions of grandeur again
    There can be only one
    The one that the spruiker wants to push on us all.

    I think it is you who has the definition wrong spruiker
    FAIL

    Where did I mention sails?
    FAIL 2

    Mindless drivel by the dick
    My actual boat has ocean capabilities and can handle a tender just fine
    FAIL 3

    You are correct there
    It is a powered boat you dullard NOT a sail boat
    FAIL 4

    Petty insults
    Perhaps you can show me an example of a sizeable powered cat that has capsized due to wave action....Just one will do richard...No?
    and I'd rather have a vessel that floated than one that dissapears without a trace
    FAIL 5
    Ah, so you are nothing but a cook
    I'll leave you to it then amateur

    Why
    would that make you feel in somehow vindicated for your pathetic behaviour?


    Like I said in earler post richard, you need help
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/minimum-passagemaker-cruiser-34861-19.html#post421317
    I provided you with several links describing your symptoms, did you read them?

    Thats you to a tee richard
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    *********,

    it is not worth to reply on your offenses. Go and redesign your junk again.
     
  8. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    Thats great richard
    I am not after a reply from you

    I, and I am sure the majority of forum members, are after discussion.
    Discussion that does not involve your repeated baits, taunts and attempts at belittlement .
    Discussion that does not involve repeated displays of your Narcissistic and Grandiose condition and delusions.

    So, back to the discussion at hand

    Smallish (minimum) vessels that are capable of doing long passages in relative comfort and safety
     
  9. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    That is a blank statement. We can't even agree on what is a long passage let alone what comfort and safety means.

    If you are going to go with the minimum perhaps comfort needs to be compromized a bit. I sat down with it a bit over the weekend and I think you could trim it down to a design waterline displacement of around 25,000 lb

    So a bit of an SOR

    2500 NM range at S/L 1.2 plus 10% reserve is enough fuel
    Power as propulsion
    Carry 6 weeks of supplies and safety gear for crew
    Good for high and low latitudes.
    set up for anchoring out.
     
  10. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    I'd run with that
    But for me I would shrink the latitudes back to Low to Medium

    Some have no intention of needing or wanting to go much further south, or North of 40 to 50 deg
    Personally, I would feel the type of vessel needed for venturing into these areas can also make the build more prohibitive.

    Depending on time of year Insulation, heating, more robust (heavier) build would be required.

    A vessel of this style in turn, is not well suited to the tropics where you will want more light and airy and well ventilated
     
  11. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Yes indeed Sabahcat. Its a mistake to built a rugged all ocean TANK and then have to live with it in the normal cruising grounds of the world. Light and nimble is the way to go for most cruising you will ever do. I cant tell from your picture if you have opening portholes in your topsides ? but be assured they are fantastic for ventilation and cooling down a yacht. Perhaps not a good idea in the roaring forties.
     
  12. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    Mine will, yes
    4 large opening hatches like this sailing cat (with pre made storm boards)
    [​IMG]
    a large slider in each cabin side
    Large openers and door in cockpit B/H
    10 hatches @500x500 in deck
    Air to be funnelled in through lockers when raining
    And several opening portlights down each hull
     
  13. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Great detail. Fresh air !! Mine are "lockable" so no wise guy goes for fresh air while at sea. Its a simple ss cable with a mini padlock. Also, if you can get one down low...mid topsides .. and not effect the aesthetics of your design .......the port hole makes a great toe hold when side boarding you vessel from a tender. You will fequently side board when taking on groceries...its the shortest route to the galley. Also for side boarding when the vessel is alongside a low floating dock.
     
  14. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    You eliminate all of Northern Europe at a 50 degree limit. The build would be more prohibitive if we were talking cat but we can pretty much eliminate a cat based on cost and need to carry enough weight. A monohull will be much cheaper to run and build.

    True if that boat is a sailing craft or cat but not a powered monohull. All boats are a compromise and what makes the craft suitable for passagemaking usually makes it suitable for higher latitudes. Ventilation can be handled in many ways and make a boat okay in the tropics. What we all have to remember is that a minimum passagemaker is just that. You will not have all the comforts of home with you. You are not taking a floating condo across an ocean.

    I played around with something around
    50' LOA 15.2m
    48' LWL 14.6m
    9'6" BOA 2.9m
    9' BWL 2.7m
    Disp light ship 18,500
    DWL 24,500
    Fuel 650 gal
    water 300 gal
    Engine Beta 60

    S/L 0.8 (5.5k) range 4,350 NM
    S/L 1.0 (7.0k) range 3,280 NM
    S/L 1.2 (8.5k) range 2,480 NM
    Flat out S/L 1.4 (9.7k) range 1,750 NM

    You would have a good 24V DC system, minimal AC electrical, cold plate refrigeration, water maker, Hot and cold pressure water and that is about it for high end goodies.

    Stabilization would be by flopper stoppers with a jury get home rig based on the flopper stopper system.

    Provisions and space would be allocated to adding in goodies as you felt the real need.

    Accomodations would be that of a normal 36' boat. Finish would be commercial.

    You could back yard build it for about $130k USD out of aluminum. A yard build would be about double.

    Would I want it? Not at the present time. I would want a bit more comfort and therefore about 60' as a minimum to carry the extra load.
     

  15. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    "You eliminate all of Northern Europe at a 50 degree limit. "

    you take high latitude out of context. Any sensible well found yacht can operate in the Baltic Sea, British Isles. Coastal Norway is full of small craft. Ive run into small weekenders happily enjoying summer on the coast Labrador.
     
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