Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    No pool, Im reading your interpretation of the report. The professional mariner...ferry boat bridge officers, failed to interpret a LEGAL light system . When a light appears in a professional mariners view..you identify it with radar. A ferry has radar. I frequently encounter UNKNOWN lights, then identify the lights range and bearing with radar and keep a sharp lookout.
     
  2. pool
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 59
    Likes: 3, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 38
    Location: outbound

    pool Junior Member

    Michael, I traced back that link - you can check out the report here: http://www.bsu-bund.de
    english version is reported to follow shortly, but the radar screenshots already online now are quite instructive with regard to the information available on the bridge before the collision.
     
  3. gunship
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 144
    Likes: 11, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 137
    Location: Sweden

    gunship Senior Member

    Small boats are often very hard to spot on radar - hence why a radar reflector is recommended, and even then it's no guarantee if there is a lot of clutter...
     
  4. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    I agree, many boats have very small radar returns. However when I see a light and don't see a radar return I never assume I'm hallucinating and there is no boat attached to the light. :)

    I don't want to extend this debate, but it takes two to tango.

    I'm editing this post after looking at the report.

    The entire event unfolded in about 5 minutes. The sailboat was in a heavy traffic area at 0400 with no radar reflector and no AIS system. The sailboat's course shows that she sailed between two ships that blocked the line of sight between the ferry and the sailboat. There was about 5 minutes where the sail boat could have seen the ferry off her port bow and about 3 minutes that the ferry had an unobstructed view of the sailboats lights off her starboard bow.

    The sailboat skipper is an idiot. If just after you sailed between to ships, you see a ferry less than a mile off, to you blindly hold your course until it is too late to avoid collision? Do you do this sort of thing at night with no radar reflector or AIS?

    I don't see how anyone can take this incident and blame it on a masthead light. Deck level lights would have made little difference (however I would not use my masthead tri-colour as close to traffic or shore as the sailboat was). The lights appeared less than .8nm from the collision. The examples shown in the report to not condemn masthead lights for me, they point out that you cannot assume distance if you don't know the height of the light. Assuming that a light is close to the water to base the distance estimate leads to overestimating that distance. A fixed scene as shown to explain how an error can be made. There is simply not enough information to know distance in those examples. However, if the bearing does not change one can assume the courses are converging.

    In this case the real situation is a sailboat light appears .7-.8 nm away off the starboard bow showing a crossing situation. The bearing does not change, showing a collision course. Your speed is 15.7 knots. At any reasonable estimate of the sailboat's speed how close must it be to hold bearing?

    R
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  5. gunship
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 144
    Likes: 11, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 137
    Location: Sweden

    gunship Senior Member

    No, I also thought it strange that the sail boat did not do anything. Or did they sit there and thought that "I've got right of way, so if I die then it's their fault, Hmmpf"

    Also, It's not like the masthead light is constantly at horizon level. as you get closer the light would either move upwards or down. however by then it might be too late, but as you said, they still held onto a collision course.
     
  6. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    Seems that SV Mahdi is a bad luck magnet:

    Hit by Ferry 2009

    attacked by Pirates on the 8th March 2005

    2 1/2 months earlier MV Mahdi rode out the Great Tsunami in Nai Hahn Bay, Phuket - Thailand on the 26 December 2004.

    Mahdi's master?
    Rodney J. Nowlin, USN Retired March 11, 2005
    S/V Mahdi
     
  7. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
    Posts: 3,590
    Likes: 130, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2369
    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    It's also a mistake to think that just because you have a radar reflector that you can be 'seen'. Every test report I've read suggests that passive reflectors are all but useless and only a very few of the active one's make an appreciable difference.
    Just like the nav lights, crap gear makes for crap results...
     
  8. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I track Long Line fishing bouys at sea by their radar reflector. Every boat should have one...its not a miracle, only and aid. Since many reader here are small craft navigtors Its important to realize that when close in with a ship, you become invisable. The rule is one mile...never appraoch a ship at sea closer than one mile...NEVER or they may not see you
     
  9. pool
    Joined: Sep 2010
    Posts: 59
    Likes: 3, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 38
    Location: outbound

    pool Junior Member

    They attacked him 3 days prior to his retirement! That's simply not fair ....
     
  10. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    Yes, lights and radar reflectors are only aids. Not having one on your boat is making a choice, I advise my crew to don their tinfoil suits and run about the deck flapping their arms like chickens ... doesn't do much for radar reflection but it gets them some exercise and provides comic relief for the helmsman. :D

    There is mentality among some boaters that things like running lights and radar reflectors are only something they need only to comply with some law. They buy the cheapest crap they can, then spend money on a bigger cooler, more ice, and more beer. I don't understand them.

    It is a bitter pill when the dream is crossing oceans and one finds that the cost is prohibitive. Very few can replace $$$ with skill and sweat equity and realize their dream on a small budget.

    You just cannot lash empty oil drums to the family sedan, weld paddles on the wheels then drive to Hawaii ... yet that is the level of many budgets.

    R
     
  11. gunship
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 144
    Likes: 11, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 137
    Location: Sweden

    gunship Senior Member

    I've read studies stating that while it works, its not a guarantee to be seen. however, it needs to be properly shaped - even the tiniest dent will halve its effectiveness.
     
  12. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    I think the cut and paste gives the wrong idea, although that comment is damned funny.

    I think that was the date he wrote the letter not when he retired. :D

    R
     
  13. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    This one deserves a mini-rant ... :)

    I don't think the need for a dinghy is limited to passagemaking.

    This means for any vessel labeled as a cruiser the designer should devote as much thought to the tender as to the head. They are tied for #1 on the needs list.

    How many boats with heads and holding tanks also have the tender designed in?

    I submit that this is a easy line to separate cruising designs from casual use designs. If the design does not include provision for a tender, it is not a proper cruiser, coastal, ocean going or otherwise.

    Rant ended.

    Randy
     
  14. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "Those who fall in love with practice without science are like a sailor who steers a ship without a helm or compass, and who can never be certain whither he is going"

    Leonardo Da Vinci

    Too bad Leonardo never got to Polynesia , he would have seen it done , as well as celestial navigation with out a time piece!

    FF
     

  15. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    LOL yes. There is more science to the practice of navigation by the Polynesians than is readily apparent to the western mind. They did have a helm/steering control and the stars serve for heading, so the helm and compass <> random course analogy still applies. Those voyages were far from random!
     
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