Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mydauphin, Sep 29, 2010.

?

What is minimum that you can handle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2010.
  1. I can only live in a proper yacht

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  2. Need: Size between 40 and 50 feet

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  3. Need: Size between 30 and 40 feet

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  4. Need: Size smaller than 30 feet ok

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  5. Need: Power

    22 vote(s)
    66.7%
  6. Need: Sail

    19 vote(s)
    57.6%
  7. Need: Single Engine

    24 vote(s)
    72.7%
  8. Need: Twin Engine

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Need: Head and holding tank

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
  10. Need: Air conditioner and Generator

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  11. Need: Watermaker

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  12. I don't care if interior looks like my garage

    8 vote(s)
    24.2%
  13. Need: DC Power Only

    15 vote(s)
    45.5%
  14. Need: Carpeting

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  15. Need: Wood floors

    9 vote(s)
    27.3%
  16. Need: Satellite TV

    3 vote(s)
    9.1%
  17. Need: Internet

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  18. Need: Hot Water Shower

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  19. Need: Manual Bilge pumps

    17 vote(s)
    51.5%
  20. Need: Propane Stove

    16 vote(s)
    48.5%
  21. Need: Freezer

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  22. Need: A boat that won't shame me at the marina.

    12 vote(s)
    36.4%
  23. Need: Windlass

    18 vote(s)
    54.5%
  24. Need: Dingy

    26 vote(s)
    78.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Interesting statement about the king size bed, really.
    You drivel Sabahcat, and you do it on thin ice. There is no way that you can sleep in the common king size bed* in severe seastates, thats utter nonsense.
    *for instance that on Tad´s 39ft shown some posts back

    And a very interesting sort of math´s you are using. A couple on a passage has 1 or 2 people on watch, while the other 2 are at rest? Who? Neptun and Poseidon? Or Laurel and Hardy? Foolhardy.....and laurel for the stew, probably.

    If you would read and try to comprehend what we are talking here, you would possibly not come up with all that nonsense. I recommend you read the thread (and maybe mine before that) to grasp where we come from, when we say "passagemaker".
    The boat we are trying to specify here schould be able to cross all oceans in safety, your 1000 mile trip will not fit that bill. Of course, even a 500 mile trip can be called a passage, but the Kreta - Ancona ferry is not a passagemaker.

    Read before you blabber....

    Richard
     
  2. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    Let's see ahh a 45' motor sailor is probably going to have around a 5.8 knot average sailing speed and maybe a 7 knot motoring speed for a combined of maybe 6.5 knots. 25000/6.5 = 3,846 hours in one year.
    3,846/365 = 10.54 hours of moving per day, 365 per year. That sir is quite impressive to me moving nearly half the time. You can probably count the people on your fingers that are doing that on a pleasure boat in any one year worldwide. That is one impressive boat to have that much internet access on the move and that much go time year after year.
     
  3. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    3846/24 = 160 days at sea. If you are making passages you run 24/7. High mileage yes, but I know some delivery skippers that have number close to that.

    If you take my 5000 miles over 43 days miles this year you get over 42,000 miles per year if I was doing it full time.

    10,000 - 25,000 miles is a reasonable number but says nothing about the content of the posts. :)
     
  4. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I am sitting in the nav station at this minute. The screen snap is a simple 400 mile week...cruising with guests. Passages go 1400 miles per week when the weather cooperates and with the help of an MTU. 10, 000 miles gets you from Gibraltar into the Black Sea and back with 7 day a week cruising in 6 countries between. Windscreen wipers are an import feature for 24 x 7 operation. Cummings diesel powered generators are bulletproof. Now get back on topic and inform readers of Boatdesign net about important observation concerning small craft on the sea.
     

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  5. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    Michael I would swear you posted those two photos in another posting somewhere. I will look. I just don't believe you anymore. Not that I want to see you disappear.

    I have already said what I feel about minimal passagemakers in this thread. The rest is debate. :)
     
  6. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 1,792
    Likes: 61, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 793
    Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters

    RHough Retro Dude

    I have to wonder how many of the people that are looking at passagemaker options have spent enough time on the water to know that is what they really want?

    I know that my desires have changed over time. I used to want to have a boat that I could sail to Tahiti from the west coast of NA. After time spent in small boats (under 35 feet) I decided that I wanted/needed a much bigger boat than I had thought if making passages in the Pacific was to be remotely comfortable and safe. Sure Catalina 27's have sailed around the world, but the thought of making a 2000 nm passage in a 5-6 knot boat is just painful to me.

    Over time I came to realize that I enjoy sail racing, sailing to a destination not so much. I found myself not longing to cross oceans in a small sailboat.

    How about a power boat? I agree that 50-70 feet is about the size to consider if I was going to Hawaii and the South Seas. Wench (my last mate) has a say in all of this, we ended up with a boat that is definitely NOT a passagemaker. Some don't even consider it a proper coastal cruiser. None the less I did take the boat from Mexico to Canada and back this year. I was never more than 70 miles offshore and only ran 24/7 for 4-5 days out of the 43 day total.

    I found out that I don't care for long days at sea. No problem with sea sickness and no fear involved, I just find it tedious.

    One popular destination is about 160-170 nm down the coast. If I had purchased or build a 60 foot passagemaker I would plan to cruise at about 8 knots, 20 hours underway to get to my favourite beach bar in Tenacatita. The boat I have can run 20+ knots in flat water ... we have left the dock at 0700 and been sipping a margarita at 1400 the same day. Very few passagemakers can average 22-23 knots.

    The reason I post this little story here is that many people seem to dream and plan about boats long before they have the experience upon which to really know what they want. Then they argue with people like Apex that have both experience and passion for passagemaking.

    I would suggest crewing for someone else on a passage or two (extra crew willing to learn can ALWAYS find a berth) to see if it is really what you want to do. If it is, the experience will help you with a SOR that makes sense both for you and to a designer or broker that wants to help you into the right boat for you.

    There are a few things I can almost guarantee.
    You will NOT be sleeping in the Vee Berth whilst underway except in very mild conditions.
    You will pay anything for a warm, dry, secure sea berth for your off watch.
    You will find that the amount of time spent caring for boat systems is double or triple what you thought it would be, but still less time than you would spend repairing a system you did not maintain.

    I've come to the conclusion that my minimum passage maker is about 100 feet with a stewardess and someone like Apex as master. :D

    This reminds me, I should go back-flush the AC cooling system on the boat ...
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    RHough you post I think is honest and what most people find. Few if any need a real passagemaker and speed over relatively short distances is not bad. Passagemakers do have their drawbacks in port.


    Do you really think 10k to 25k miles is reasonable in the Med and Black Sea? Nahhh.
     
  8. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Well Pierre it might be hard to believe in Ohio !!! Grab your calipers and a chart and do some measuring. And Gee, you want more pictures !!! I took 5000 this year alone...which ones do you want ? here you go...This picture is of a stem launched anchor. A very good detail on an offshore passagemaker because water can not enter the chain locker in heavy weather thru the anchor winch chain hawse pipe. Put it on your list, its better than a big fuel tank. As far as passage maker. The concept concerns boats who can comfortably traverse a body of water, in most conditions. safely and carry enough provisions for two or three weeks of fun.
     

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  9. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 4,862
    Likes: 115, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1180
    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    An Pierre, since there are not many gas stations in the world, your passagemker will always be taking on water and fuel via one ton tanks ,transferred by the local farmer in the back of his truck. Dont burn too much...farmers are hard to find these days, and keep your fuel fill amidships because farmers have short hoses on their rigs. . And hows your caliper work going ? Remember . south of the Balearic Islands, thru the Straits of Bonifacio, Straits of Messina, Corinth Canal, Khalkis Canal, Dardenelles, Sea of Marmara, past Istanbul and presto...Black Sea.
     

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  10. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 2,579
    Likes: 123, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1650
    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    :rolleyes: Never seen smth like this..
     

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  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Did I say you never sailed the world?

    Farmers? Gas stations?

    Oh come on "Captain", do you know how many boats are sailing the south Pacific today? DO you believe they go to Japan or the US to refill? Are you aware that they have electricity already in Vanuatu, Papeete and Rarotonga?

    The "gas station" is named bunker station btw! Just to get that straight, Mr. "Captain" oops.. Teddy types faster..

    Your well thought out anchor setup is ****. It makes a wet foredeck and screen with all the spray it produces, even in nice weather. And when you feel fine with just one anchor in remote places, well, that fits my opinion about your "expertise" again. Ähh, skilled people have no problem with a wet chain lkr., there is a drain pipe, layman.
     
  12. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
    Likes: 28, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 273
    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    You assume correct
    I never mentioned cubic feet, that was an assumption you made not me
    Now you know it's litres, it's not so hard to figure out that while on passage there is plenty of power being generated to run it and store energy in batteries for when anchored.

    Yes, we are talking minimal passagemaker here or at least I am
    But, numpties like apex think that a minimum one needs to be able to do 6000nm on a tank or something equally silly.
    That's an expensive vessel and fill, so I guess you can afford several solar panels and probably a small Honda/Kipor or similar genny as backup.

    I have friends who have been cruising for at least 5 years now on their 43 ft power cat
    They have similar size refrigeration, several solar pannels and even have a split system a/c that they can run on those very hot nights, using a 2 kva honda.



    Thats fair, 4 to 5 days thats a run from Brisbane Australia to Vanuatu at 8 knots
    Thats around as long a passage as I'll be doing in my passagemaker

    As for fatigue
    I mentioned in adverse conditions the use of a parachute anchor.
    These are also great to use just for holding position and resting in the middle of the ocean.
    Yes, I have used them before, in 50 knots of wind, and was amazed at how comfortable the nights rest and the following days rest was, before resuming our passage.
     
  13. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    That's a good choice to have for a shorthanded crew, heave to, parachute or droque, autopilot, or whatever preferably two of them available.. :cool:
     
  14. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 2,306
    Likes: 191, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 2281
    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

    Looking back (quickly) through this thread I find only four actual boats submitted for evaluation as minimum passagemakers......

    1) Hub Miller's 30' Ship
    2) George Buehler's Idlewild
    3) PL39
    4) 60' modified dory

    In the poll 25% of respondents were happy with a boat less than 30'....for those folks I submit the Timbercoast 22'....built in aluminum by Bartender Boats http://www.bartenderboats.com/images/TimberCoast%206-9-2009.pdf

    Power is a 29HP Nanni diesel, maximum speed is 7.8 knots, at which point she's getting 5.6mpg. Her standard tankage is 30usg, easily doubled using void space under the cockpit sole. At 5.9 knots (2000 RPM) she is burning
    0.4usg per hour, mileage is 14.75 per usg, and range on the standard tankage (minus reserve) is 380 miles. At 1600 RPM and 5 knots range expands to 520 miles. With larger tanks and a few jugs in the cockpit 1200 mile range will be easy.

    As neither my PL39' nor the 60' are acceptable, and no one said anything about Hub's ship, we're left with Idlewild.......yet the reality is than she's been for sale for 5 years with no takers.......So perhaps the sub $100k stock long-range cruiser is the alternative answer? I would have no qualms about setting off for Mexico or Alaska in the 22', and stretched some Hawaii, the Caribbean, trans-Atlantic, and the South Seas would be easy..........

    TT22complete.jpg
     

  15. sabahcat
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 792
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    Location: australia

    sabahcat Senior Member

    I agree
    Every passage I have done to date we were able to sleep in the queen sized beds, but, when sea state picked up we would find ourselves getting jolted into the fwd bulkhead to a degree.
    We did solve this by stacking up cushions and pillows, locking yourself into position somewhat as mentioned before.

    If sea state continued to deteriorate eventually we would be on a single air mattress on the cabin sole, which, on a powercat of the size I speak, is around 1.2 metres in width.
    Being the lowest part of the vessel there is nowhere else to fall and it would have the least motion of anywhere on the boat.
    Cushions down the hull sides with the sleeper cocooned in between would ensure as secure a sleep as is possible in these conditions.

    If seastate went up another level, Parachute anchor and park.

    As mentioned before I have used them previously with great success
     
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