Rhino... but WHICH Rhino?

Hi,

I am new to the forum and to boat design, although I have sailed for decades. I am a currently out-of-work mechanical engineer, and I have found an opportunity to do boat design... IF I can teach myself the software. The company uses Rhino. My background is in AutoCAD.

I have a copy of Rhino 3.0 that I have been playing with, and have a pretty good handle on the modelling basics (although lofting sometimes gives me fits!).

However, I can't seem to find any function that will allow me to give the model weight, calculate the waterline, and allow me to vary length and beam and weight distribution and watch how the waterline shifts.

Do I need a different version or plug-in, or am I just not finding it?

Any and all help appreciated!

-Sue

 

Hello,

Rhino is a general modeling program, what you are looking for are the Rhino plug-in's from Orca3d. www.orca3d.com

This said, most designers start their design off in dedicated hull software, like Delftship or Maxsurf and then export the hull to Rhino.

 

Sue2,
I think if you can make a nice drafting skill in Rhino 3, then it will be just enough, because drafting for boatdesign in rhino, basically depends on how expert you are on rhino such as making smooth curves, making smooth surfaces through a desired curve network etc.

So my openion is dont worry about he higher versions or plugins ,just go through manual and good tutorials of rhino and make your hand an expert one ,

Best of luck for you,

 

For the calculations you are talking about, you can make a GHS file by rhino and use the free software "archimedes" (it can read GHS file)which can be found in the following link:
http://naval-architecture.co.uk/

 

Sue,

Welcome to the forum.

You can design the hull in Rhino using the Orca3D plug-in. It will give you full hydrostatics and real time updates of the lines as you modify the hull. The commands are the same as in Rhino with the addition of some Orca specific commands. To use Orca3D you will need to upgrade to Rhino Version 4 but it is well worth it in my opinion.

Also in my opinion there is absolutely no reason to design the hull in any other software if you are using Orca3D. I have designed many hulls with Rhino/Orca3D (and its predecessor RhinoMarine) with no problems.

If you wish to design hulls without Orca3D you can as well. Professional Boatbuilder Magazine has online classes on Rhino for boat designers (http://www.proboate-training.com/). As I understand it the lessons take you from Rhino basics through to designing a hull. You can use your Rhino 3 in the course I believe. You may want to take the course and then upgrade to Rhino 4 and Orca3D afterwards.

No, I don't work for Rhino or Orca3D, I just like their products, and I've used or tried several others along the way.

Joe

 

Thank you all for the info! And the link to ProBoat training. I think training would benefit me greatly, but right now I am trying to get some basic hydrostatics ability so this company will hire me and not the next Joe.

It looks like I need to, at a miminum, upgrade to Rhino 4.0. Version 3.0 does not seem to understand GHS commands, so I am assuming that it does not have the capability for even basic analysis. Can I assign weights/densities to objects in 3.0? If so, I may be able to try the Archimedes software. If not, upgrade to 4.0 is manditory.

I have downloaded the evaluation version of Rhino 4.0, which allows me to build GHS files, but not run/analyze them. However, it seems like the material/weight data is still not there. What am I missing? (I only have 25 "saves" in the eval version and am trying to get the most out of it while I decide whether I should go with Orca3D ($$$) or if Archimedes will be sufficient to get my foot in the door of this company.

-Sue

 

Sue,

After creating the geometry and using the AttachGHSdata command you will need to export that model as a GHS geometry file (or part file as the case may be). Then you will need to import that data into GHS. The AttachGHSdata command in Rhino 4 works better than in Rhino 3.

Rhino, on its own, is a general purpose modeling program. Plug-ins like Orca3D give it marine functionality.

 

Sue,
Rhino 3 Sr5 has the AttachGHSdata command, if you have a leagal copy of rhino 3 then you may have access to download higher service releases and the bonus tools. The bonus tools for rhino 3 can be downloaded from the following link:
http://www.rhino3d.com/3/bonus.htm

 

Rhino it self does not have any feature for assigning weight for a particular object and then calculating the total weight and center of gravity. But i have heard of a plug-in Q-weight which can do this, but i never tried this plug-in.

But remember , rhino will give you the surface area of any surface , so multiplying by the thickness of the surface we will get the volume, and multiplying by the density we will get the weight. This may lead to easier way of doing that calculation manually. For example, i used to calculate the total weight of the shell-plates of the hull by this method.

 

i was trying for AttachGHSdata command in rhino 3,,, and Archimedes seems to be good software for me,
Nice help pavel,,,

 

Sue,

Another resource which may help for general Rhino questions is the Rhino Newsgroup, accessible through www.Rhino3d.com. The staff at McNeel are quite helpful and prompt with their responses and the knowledge base of the people who post there is huge.

 

Com'on everybody, really now, do you really think the right software will magically turn someone, even a mechanical engineer, into a yacht designer? Sure, she can generate number using any number of packages, but what are the right numbers?
OK, maybe I am being too rude, as anyone can learn. Sue, do you know what prismatic coefficients, metacentric heights, righting arms, and all are, and which values are appropriate for what kind of boats? That is what you need to know before you head off into automated software data...
Have you read The Nature of Boats, Principles of Yacht Design, etc. already? Any yacht design company worth its salt will appreciate that knowledge more than knowing what SW to use to make numbers. Of couse, knowing how to use some SW packages quickly and effectively will help, and it does not really mater which one, since learning the next one is always less than the first one, and each company has their own preference, and you will have to have what they serve you. Thus, the company you are talking to, they must have a package they prefer for statistics... that is what you need, simple as that.

 

Yes Grant, IMO that was rude. No one said the software would turn her into a yacht designer. Since she is a Mechanical Engineer I am sure she has the training to be able to pick up on all the engineeering principles for yacht design. This is not like some of the other threads where a complete neophyte expects to be a yacht designer by buying software. I am pretty sure she would know from her ME training and experience that there's more to it than that. For all we know she has had an entry level job offer to join a yacht design or boat building firm and needs to upgrade her knowledge base. I have personally seen MEs come into a firm, learn Naval Archtecture on the job and get their PE stamp in Naval Architecture. When done they had a leg up on others in the firm because they understood both ME and NA.

As far as the software goes, you are right that every office has its own suite of programs which they prefer, but she specifically mentioned she had Rhino and I know Rhino so I tried to help. If she were to buy the software that the firm uses she could very well not afford it. At least using a good but inexpensive program will allow her to prove her worth without breaking the bank, especially in this economy.

I would hope that people would offer encouragement to those who are truly interested in a career in this field and gentle dissuasion to those who might not seem to "fit the bill".

 

Like I said, I was being rude... but not to Sue, I respect her attempts to get a job in a new area.

I was just suprised that everyone in the forum went right into techology push mode, with out helping her also to to get a base to build on. She did say she was new to boat design. Also its not the drafting side she is asking for help on, its the Hydrostatics... combining that, I had to conclude that she first needs to know what the hydrostatics are telling her.

If she is just working under directions of someone else and giving them the data, well, than indeed all she needs is the software. But then she needs what the company uses, as the skill she needs to show, is in managing the functionality of the SW, not interpreting the results.

My point was, assuming she would really be DESIGNING boats (not just drafting) she can better first understand the principles of yacht design before focusing on the SW, as that is probably a more negative gap in her knowledge than the SW side, since, and here I agree with you, she will be able to pick up the SW side pretty quickly. Combine that with her Mech. Eng. knowledge, she will move up far faster than if she did not have that fundamental yacht design knowledge.

Overall, I still think, given her input, that my advice is the best she got...

 

Please allow me to clarify.

I am a mechanical engineer by degree. In reality, I have worked in aerospace and civil as well. Okay, so we have determined that I am trainable.

The company in question is very small. I would not be the designer. At this time, they are looking for someone who can take the design and create a 3-D model for three purposes:
1) To make pretty pictures to show prospective clients new configurations that have not actually been built from fiberglass and wood,
2) To have a model where one can quickly move around heavy items like fuel tanks to see how it affects the trim, and
3) To make adjustments to length and beam and evaluate the effects.

#2 and #3 are where I was falling short with Rhino. I understand the principals of hydrostatics, although I may need to brush up on the really tech-y points and the lingo. I am a sailor, so I am well aware of the effects in the real world. What I didn't understand was Rhino... whether the program I had could do what I wanted and I could not find the commands, or whether I needed to upgrade. This advice I did receive on this forum, and I appreciate it immensely.

I have determined that Rhino 3.0, not being parametric, is not the optimal program for hull shape adjustments. I am still playing with the GHS part (which DOES work, with the upgrade to SR5, many thanks to Pavel for that information! I was at SR3.) and Archimedes to see if they will work for me. I'm a bit slow at learning programs without someone to demonstrate.

I, admittedly, am trying to spend minimal money on new software since I do not have the job yet, and, as has been pointed out, do not really have a marine design background, so ORCA may just gather dust if I do not get this job. This job is an opportunity that may or may not point my career in that direction.

I hope I can continue to get advice for my neophyte questions in this forum.

-Sue