merrit walters designs

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by wayne nicol, Aug 9, 2014.

  1. wayne nicol
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    wayne nicol Senior Member

    would like some input with regards to these designs.
    http://www.roverschooners.com/_bonnyrover/index.html
    looking at a steel bonny rover schooner. well built, top notch electronics, and well looked after.
    fitted out below in more of a working boat grade of finish, but very serviceable, and i can slowly upgrade interior as time progresses. put my own stamp on it...:)
    will get full detail of specs when owner gets back from holiday.
    -how do they fare as blue water boats- most seem to be used in the charter industry
    - comfort level? roll etc
    - sailing performance

    i know these questions are tricky and contraversial, but all help will be greatly appreciated

    many thanks in advance
    wayne
     
  2. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I have Fwd your inquiry to Mr Walters. Perhaps he will respond to the board.
     
  3. wayne nicol
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    wayne nicol Senior Member

    Thanks FF, for putting in the extra effort!!
    although i have corresponded with him briefly, with regards to sail plans and rig design;and even though on his site , he makes reference to their sailing performance as being superb, and refers to them as blue water boats-
    was hoping to also get some board members perspectives on the design,
    thanks all.

    "The Bonny Rover in steel is a third generation design. That is, the hull form, rig, arrangement, etc. have evolved through building and sailing two previous Rover Marine designs. Each generation has incorporate subtle changes through thousands of hours of planning and engineering calculations, after observing sailing quality and live-aboard accommodations. The result is a handsome, fast, roomy, comfortable, yet relatively economical to build live-aboard, blue-water yacht - a tall order for any vessel.

    Each time the Bonny Rover leaves her slip, she commands a following intent on viewing her gracefulness under sail, thereby affording ample opportunity to compare her sailing qualities close at hand with a side spectrum of production boats. Under the four lowers, she tacks without help form anyone aboard, save the helmsman. Balance is so exact that the wheel can be left unattended of hours on end.

    All lowers are self-tending except the jib sheet, which is belayed each side of the cockpit. By the end of several tacks, the Bonny Rover is ahead of and to windward of the run-of-the-mill production fiberglass boats. Yes! She does point well. The nonsense about windward ability attributed to gaff rigs by many designers and articles in popular magazines is base on just plain ignorance."
     
  4. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    "run-of-the-mill production fiberglass boats." That's a pretty large target, is he talking about a Morgan OI41 or a Swan 42 or a J111?

    Take all claims of superiority with a large grain of salt, it's a home built full keel steel schooner and sailing performance is not what you are buying when you build one of these. If you require decent sailing performance look at a design created with that in mind.

    Of the type Tom Colvin's designs are better boats (IMO) but I imagine the plans and rights cost quite a bit more. Denis Gantley (passed away) offers what used to be inexpensive designs of this type ttp://www.ganleyyachts.co.nz/steel_boats.html

    Locally there's John Simpson http://simpsonmarinedesign.com/stock-plans/sail-vessels/

    And Ted Brewer http://simpsonmarinedesign.com/stock-plans/sail-vessels/
     
  5. wayne nicol
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    wayne nicol Senior Member

    gotcha Tad, my concerns too- understanding the loss of performance with multi masters and also the lower aspect of gaffs.

    looked at the other links- many thanks

    should have mentioned, that i was particulaly looking at schooners- i understand the drawbacks, and the compromises- cant explain the affliction, it is just what it is:confused::D

    this boat is here locally- ready to go- no building required- but for a fair sum of money- so dont want to rush into it- obviously if i get further down the trail, marine surveys will be done
    just looking at it for the moment- still need to decide
    many thanks
     
  6. wayne nicol
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    wayne nicol Senior Member

    steel just really seems like such a good way to go, with all the junk out there floating around- they do seem pretty tough!!
    have studied your site extensively too!!!
     
  7. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    If it's an older steel boat have the surveyor measure plating thickness all over hull and deck....all the rust is happening inside.....
     
  8. wayne nicol
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    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks Tad, will do so.
    what percentage is acceptable loss over time- tough question i know!
     
  9. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    It will be a judgement call....if there's any significant (measurable) loss that's (In my mind) a big whack to the asking price. Years ago steel boats were overbuilt to allow for corrosion, with modern paint systems there is usually no corrosion of large areas. Because of interior joinery, tanks, and insulation it's often impossible to visually inspect the entire inside of the hull skin, thus radio gauging from outside.

    There are often problem areas and pin holes, before buying you want to know where these are and how extensive. And you want to be sure that whatever the paint system is, it's working properly. The usual fix is to cut the corroded plate away and replace with new, pinholes can just be ground back and welded over.
     
  10. wayne nicol
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    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks mate!
     
  11. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    >it's a home built full keel steel schooner and sailing performance is not what you are buying when you build one of these.<

    Almost ALL of the M.W boats I have seen were pro built for the charter trade , usually the head boat 49 pax .

    A these must pass the USCG inspection almost all are pro built , and the cost of the vessel is amortized against profits.

    A cardboard box with USCG gear could get a 6 pack license , big construction / inspection difference as the boat gets bigger.

    Read USCG subchapert T .

    NO a steel schooner does not sail like a Swan , and thank goodness it does not liveaboard like the Swan.

    One is a great rich guy racing toy , the other could be home.
     
  12. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I received this note from Mr Walters, Enjoy!


    Regards his question on a Rover Boat's sailing ability, perhaps you could paste the following on the forum as I am not a member: I think Wayne should click on Schooner Freedom's web site to get his answers. John, the owner of the schooner Freedom, sails the hell out of her and will give him the straight skinny, or ask any other Rover owner.

    http://www.schoonerfreedom.com/

    BTW, if you ask a yacht designer his opinion, you will get the following b.s. :

    Yacht Designer Q & A

    Q How fast will she sail?
    A Faster than you would think.

    Q How well does she point?
    A A lot better than you would think.

    Q That estimate you gave me for construction of my boat seems a little high
    A That estimate includes a full suite of electronics.

    Q That estimate you gave me for construction of my boat seems a little low.
    A That estimate does not include any electronics.

    Q Think I could build that boat in my back yard?
    A O sure, just buy the plans.

    Q Can you design a boat for me built of chicken droppings and feathers?
    A Sure, been thinking about that material myself.

    Q When can you get started on the design?
    A I'm terribly busy, but I like your ideas so well, that I can slip you in ahead of my other clients.

    Q I need a 49 passenger schooner designed and built by spring can you do it?
    A It's only January, no problem, just send me a retainer.

    So, don't ask a designer about the virtues of his designs, go to one of the owners who has one of his boats.

    Respectfully,
    Merritt Walter
    roverschooners.com
     
  13. wayne nicol
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    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks FF, i chatted to John from "schooner freedom"- really nice helpful guy.
    he runs sailing charters out of florida- last season he only used 300gal of diesel- so he really sails his boats a lot- 3 charters a day sometimes
    he likes how the boats sail- obviously dont point as well as other boats do- tough , robust and kindly- he says.
    only negative he had was that it was under canvassed , USCG regs for charters- but with more canvas he felt they would really move along.
    good positive feedback from a real user.
    will keep researching though!!!!
    many thanks
    wayne
     

  14. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    >obviously dont point as well as other boats do- tough , robust and kindly- he says.

    ANY cruising boat will usually not be created to point as high as a racing boat.

    Climbing 12 ft hills of water requires Energy , in flat water high pointing is fine to get to the mark first , the extra draft required , and narrow staying and sheeting base is PIA .

    For racers , why not , everyone leaves (but the repair crew ) when the race is over.

    For cruisers where a self steering or Autopilot will have the helm 95% of the time the proverbial ability to beat of a Lee shore is useful, but 60 deg tacks are not.
     
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