Marine Biodiesel fuels

Excellent rebuttal

Hans, in truth, this subject is not only important to Australians, but to those world wide. Possibly the production is somewhat simplified, but then, it's not complicated either. Using spare time to make fuel beats sitting in ront of the television any time. It is unlikely that there will be a shortage of raw product in the near or long term future and I feel that micro refineries will be here indefinitely. As regards licensing, people still are able to make their own alcohol for personal consumption as well as grow tobacco for their own use. It would be many years before there would be any regulation on making your own fuel as almost all governments are advocating the effort to energy self sufficiency. I know of one place where raw vegetable oil (unrefined) is used to operate a steam engine that was made from a large air compressor. Innovation is definitely the way of the future. Thank you for your input.

 

hansp: my line of thinking? thought was enough clear for all previous posts... try reading again from the first post.
I apologize if I offended someone, was not my intention, just trying to give my point of view.
From my working experience, stated some arguments & facts I do think are reasonable, even if you don't think the same.

greenseas: "here will be a shortage of raw product in the near or long term future" would recommend you entering http://www.shell.com on the globe section to see how much just one of the 7 sisters has discovered recently on the Caspian Sea...

Think we gone too far here & we (all) are on the edge of begining to disqualify or fight any other, so, better cut this topic here, as no one will convince the other side.
Wish you good luck producing biofuel there as I'll be glad while working on a Petroleum Company here.
by the way, as you have some difficulties decoding my location:
34'54"35"47S - 56'07"48"98W is the center of the pool at the Yacht Club Uruguayo, Puerto del Buceo, Montevideo / Uruguay - South America
cheers

 

Very good post Hans.

The Brasil example is relevant to this discussion. They have a vast leadership in what concerns Biofuels and renewable energies.

More than 90% of his consumed electrical energy is produced by hydroelectric means.

More than 1/3 of the fuel wasted in cars comes from Biofuels.

http://www.mma.gov.br/ascom/ultimas/index.cfm?id=567

“Alcohol made from sugar cane is becoming the fuel of choice in Brazil. ...
Regular car engines will run fine on a 10 percent blend of alcohol and gasoline. But by using computer sensors that adjust to whatever mix is in the tank, flex car engines run on either ethanol, gasoline, or any combination of the two. And they have been roaring out of dealerships here since Volkswagen sold the first TotalFlex Golf in March 2003.
Today, flex cars are outselling traditional gasoline models. In August, 62 percent of new cars sold were flex, according to industry numbers. "Demand has been unbelievable," says Barry Engle, the new president of Ford Brasil. "I am hard-pressed to think of any other technology that has been such a success so quickly."
Unlike hybrids sold in the US, for example, flex cars sold in Brazil don't cost any more than traditional models. In fact, some models are only available with flex engines now. Ethanol engines use 25 percent more ethanol per mile than gasoline. But ethanol (the alcohol produced by fermenting sugar) usually sells at somewhere between a third to half of the price of gas”

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1007/p05s01-woam.html


“"Flex-fuel" cars, which run on any combination of ethanol and petrol, took 53.6% of the Brazilian market in 2005.
Brazil produced a record 2.4 million vehicles last year, 1.7 million of them for the domestic market.
In all, 866,267 flex-fuel cars were sold in Brazil in 2005 against just 328,379 the year before, ...”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4602972.stm

“In Brazil, ethanol fuel is produced from sugar cane which is a more efficient source of fermentable carbohydrates than corn as well as much easier to grow and process. Brazil has the largest sugarcane crop in the world, which, besides ethanol, also yields sugar, electricity, and industrial heating. Sugar cane growing requires little labor, and government tax and pricing policies have made ethanol production a very lucrative business for big farms. As a consequence, over the last 25 years sugarcane has become one of the main crops grown in the country.

One tonne (1,000 kg) of harvested sugarcane, as shipped to the processing plant, contains about 145 kg of dry fiber (bagasse) and 138 kg of sucrose. Of that, 112 kg can be extracted as sugar, leaving 23 kg in low-valued molasses. If the cane is processed for alcohol, all the sucrose is used, yielding 72 liters of ethanol. Burning the bagasse produces heat for distillation and drying, and (through low-pressure boilers and turbines) about 288 MJ of electricity, of which 180 MJ is used by the plant itself and 108 MJ sold to utilities.
The average cost of production, including farming, transportation and distribution, is US$0.63 per US gallon (US$0.17/L); the gasoline price in the world market is approximately US$ 1.05 per US gallon (US$0.28/L). The alcohol industry, entirely private, has invested heavily in crop improvement and agricultural techniques. As a result, average yearly ethanol yield increased steadily from 300 to 550 m³/km² between 1978 and 2000, or about 3.5% per year.

Some question the viabiliy of biofuels like ethanol as total replacements for gasoline/crude oil. We cannot replace all our food-growing fields with fuel-producing ones. Some authors like George Monbiot fear the marketplace will convert crops to fuel for the rich while the poor starve and biofuels cause environmental problems.”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

 

Vega,

Very true on the supply aspect for ethanol. The fear really is that food crops will be displaced by those that ethanol can be made from.

 

No offense taken

No offense taken and your input is valuable and thought provoking which is good. The petroeum connection was fairly apparent early on the thread. We also can agree to disagree. Thankfully we all aren't of one opinion. Stick around and speak your mind.

 

The example you stated is true, really true, but not the only true there, the ethanol consumption as on the automotive industry has experimented a sustained growth for the last 10 years, but the CNG (compressed Natural Gas) has overpassed twice those numbers in Brazil:
http://www.ngv.com/
even in Argentina, the situation (they do not have ethanol) is quite similar:
http://www.argentinaequiposgnc.com.ar/estadisitcasgnc.htm
In our case (Uruguay (we have real some problems here), as we do not produce any fuel, and worst, our consumption matrix is really unbalanced, our automotive fleet is highly disbalanced to diesel, so, for the crude oil we import ftom Far East, we have an excedent of gasolines we are exporting at ex-refinery (import parity price) to some other countries in América & importing diesel from Argentina & Brazil at market price... The Natural Gas quota negotiated with Bolivia is not enough for domestic use, in crude words, we're screwed...
as an example, the gasoline price here is U$1.30/lt (yeah, litter, not gallon!!!) diesel is U$ 1.05/lt. (you think somebody here can honestly be against biofuels? )

 

Big deal...you are a lucky guy, here it costs 1,4euros/L, that is $1,7USD/L.

 

No offence taken Solrac, thanks for the apology- I love a good debate, particularly on issues such as these, and in any debate i most surely value an opinion that is oposite to mine- it gives me something to aim at.
In referring to your line of thought I was making particular reference to the two main points I thought you may have raised, and which I brought up in my last post- (won't bother again)
rather than to your line of thought throughought this entire thread,
this second of which you most clearly possess.
The same to be said about the reasonableness of your arguments and facts.

P.S.
Thank you for decoding that location for me (shamefully I wouldn't know how), it is nice to know to who and from where you are talking to, especially in a conversation like this where place has a lot of relevence.

Vega, very interesting about the ethonal production and usage.
Here ethanol additions in fuels was villified and demonised for a few years, with threats that it would void new car warranties, and that 'dodgy' petrol stations and companies were ruthlessy adding it to make a few bucks.
Then we had a complete government backflip, so that now the percent of ethanol is creeping up, and apparantly now, it will not damage your engine.
I know one thing ecologically about the fermentation of ethanol fuels is that we must account for a significant increase in CO2 emmissions. Possibilities are to capture, compress, and use or store it- after all pure CO2 does have a monetary value- or the holy grail of politicians who advocate the 'do nothing but trust in science argument' of carbon geo-sequestration.
Another option is to have cyclical production units, a rather high infrastructure set up, where the CO2 from fermentation is cycled back to CO2 enrich the air in sun powered hydroponic or glasshouse crops- such as those displaced food crops or good old sugar cane again.

Yeast to rescue again!
What would we do without it.

Gotta go.
Hans.

 

Biofuel crops

Hans, The displacement of food crops by biofuel crops may be a real problem in the future, especially when large companies enter the picture for monetary gains only. I think that the Europeans have an answer to the problem, but only to a degree. In Germany there are many large plots of land divided in to family size plots of about a half an acre each. On each plot there is a shed for storing tools along with a small kitchen and toilet. The rest of the plot is devoted to a family garden. This dates back to pre-WWII days and exists today. Not many years ago when I was still in the work force and had 3 kids at home, I had a small 15' x 15' organic garden in the back of our property and used the Japanese intensive gardening method to raise 17 different vegetables. At the end of the season, all plants were pulled up and recycled in the compost pile where left over table food was also added. If major agriculutural lands are dedicated to raising crops for biofuel, such gardening may come back again. Where there's a will, there's a way. On a significantly m,ore important note, people are beginning to realize that the earth has finite limits on being able to support mankind. There's definitely a new awakening. In the interim, being that this forum has international impact, it might be advantageous to develop complete documentation and equipment specification for making biodiesel using plain verbiation that can be understoood by those who haven't had the advantage of advanced education. Descriptive drawings would help. Such a booklet could be easily translated into many languages and be of value to all nations. Your thought?

 

Sure Greenseas, I think that would be a great idea. There certainly are a lot more people nowdays who want to do something to lower their impact on the planet. There will probably also be a growing range of people who are interested in the technology primarily for economic reasons too. Though as for some sort of deep-fryer-oil-rush, I seriously doubt that there will be a shortage any time soon.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if there were already some booklets available somewhere. Here they call it running your engine on "chip oil" and it is reasonably (though still quite rarely) popular within the alternative cultures and movements. It might be worth checking out some of the health food shops, co-ops, and general 'hippy joints.' When I get a little free time again, in a day or two I will do some research.
Personally I have neither the specific education or technical know how to design such a book myself, do you?
I know a little about organic chemistry and distillation, mainly theory based, but probably not enough.

the old problem about food crops, and the deception of not enough of them, raises the old problem about distribution, and not enough of it. Namely that there is more than enough food being produced in the world today to ensure that no human ever (at present) goes hungry or malnutritioned. If we 1st worlders alone ate just a little less meat, and cut down on the incredibly inneficient process of growing grain and feeding it to livestock to convert it into meat, then that alone would pretty much solve the problem. (please note I am not preaching vegetarianism- I say do what your body wants, me it is mainly vegetable and regularly small amounts of meat)
But hey I can't talk, I am currently digesting a belly full of rump steak and salad, the steak was over an inch thick and as big as a large plate, my girlfriend and I could only eat half...
(My excuse is that I won the meat tray at the pub two days ago- first time in my life, never seen such a pile of meat!)
Better stop now, I am getting rather off the point, deleriously tired and overworked, not to mention fluey, and no doubt to some, innapropriatly political.

Excuse me. (burp)

Hans.

 

Good points

Hans, Be right down to help with the steak. My particular education lead top a degree in applied physics, but like so many other areas, physics is progressive to the point that it's hard to keep up with. My company, Micro Marine Technology Corporation has as a side interest, a publishing house.that may be useful. I believe that developing fact sheets that simplify the refining process and equipment to usable terms for the average person is paramount. Long analysis will lose them. The refining process itself is rather easy and can be defined rather simply. Also, photos and simple graphics would help as a picture is worth a thousand words. I also believe that my own experience with biodiesel production and use might be of some value. Speaking of chip fuel, there's another process that may be of value and one where research is ongoing in the US, the use of wood chips to convert to ethanol. A few years back, in one of the organic processes books, there was an article that caught my attention on hybrid poplar trees. A little more research revealed that they grow up to 30 feet per year and can be densely planted. They're availabl;e through Stark Brothers Nursery and others in this country. Just thoughts. My personal e-mail address is Greenseas2@aol.com. I'll start doing reasearch on simplification of the biodiesel processing and equipment and see how much more information that we can get that might be useful. At present I'm trying to see how by-products of the refining can be used to both incinerate the by-product and be used to heat the raw vegetable oil. Hopefully, I won't burn the house down or cause an explosion that might ruin my day. Might be best to experiment in an open field. Maybe mix a little hydrogen with the glycerin. LOl I was down in Woomera to install the satellite commuications terminal there.

 

There was a serious study here in Uruguay, carried by Shell about that fact. about 1991 Shell Uruguay Ltd, formed a joint-venture with Kimmene (Finland Paper productor), began acquiring land, (about 45000ha) and planting trees, as on a parallel line the studies on biomass were carried. To make the tale short, Shell sold out all the explotation to Kimmene first & now it's Botnia (another Finland Paper Co.) the owner, (now in process of construction of a cellulose pulp plant). The biomass study was put aside on a shelf because it was not economically viable... (at least, for the 1991 numbers)

 

Economic viability

You're right about the studies. Any extraction of cellulose will be expensive and result in a high percentage of waste.

 

excuse me, maybe I was misunderstood, the study carried out by the multinational (Shell) was about methanol production from wooden chips, it was abandoned for not economically viable. The cellulose pulp plant is in process of construction now... (and the real fight this country is having with Greenpeace now Jeeeesuschrist!!!)

 

Shell research

I had to laugh at your comment on GreenPeace. They serve some good causes...at times, but can be a real pain. Has shell done any research on biodiesel production from vegetable oils? Any additional information is valuable. Use of by-products from biodiesel refining is an area that's open for research. It would be great to be able to recycle 100% of the raw material. Information on any purer raw materials would also be valuable to energy production.