Manual Boat Winch for 7500 pounds?

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by blackdaisies, Nov 18, 2008.

  1. blackdaisies
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    I know, first of all, I ask a lot of useless questions, but there isn't a gear thread in this forum, and I just wanted to know if a product like this exists. Is there a possibility of a 7500 pound or more manual boat winch to put on a trailer?

    I've seen up to 4500 pounds, but I can't be quoted on that. I don't have the url? How about two winches together? How did they get bigger, not so big at all really, 30 foot, boats out of the water in the days before electric winches?

    Thanks for your help!
     
  2. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I honestly don't know if anyone makes a 7500lbs or larger hand operated trailer winch. I did look for one, but no dice.

    I do have to ask however why you would ever need one this large? 7500 is a very large trailerable boat that would require a gooseneck trailer with multiple axles and almost but not quite a diesel dulie to pull it. With this type of money tied up in trailoring running a 12v plug from the trucks engine to the winch seems a pretty cheap investment for a lot more convienance.
     
  3. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    I guess this is the type of boat you would leave in the water? I don't know. I found a boat plan that has a beam little over 6 feet wide and 30 feet long weighing 7000 pounds, an identical one 24 feet long boat and the beam a little over 6 feet wide weighing 2340 pounds. I guess that would be a deciding factor if it needs no special trailering to take the 2340 one.

    I found a winch to take on 3500 hundred pounds, so 2500 has to out there too. Of course for a large price, but it would work.

    What about pulling a 2340? A regular truck should be able to pull a 2340 pound boat on a trailer don't you think? I've seen them haul cattle and horses in longer ones and no special trailer or amount of power was needed.

    I've had to reguess my whole configurations for Cumberland water. It's shallow, so these boats are 1 to 1 and 1/2 feet draft. They are sharpies. Plus a little more room will be better than a 14 footer. I'm just asking nosy questions on trailering these types of boats. Thanks for the good advice.

    I've seen the things you are talking about. They are a metal frame that goes under the boat and lifts it out of the water? It's called a lift, but I don't want to go to those extremes for a small boat. Something less than 40 feet, I thought wouldn't need special trailering unless it weighs a lot, so long as it's within the 8 feet and a few inches beams.

    I found a winch for 100 dollars for weights around 2600. So that is not as bad as I thought.
     
  4. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I think you are really asking about trailoring not a winch so here goes.

    Class 1 - Can handle gross weights of 2000lbs/toung weight of 200
    Class 2 - 3500/300
    Class 3 - 5000/500
    Class 4 - 10,000/1,000
    Class 5 - Over 10,000. This is normally a gooseneck

    The normal hitch you see on a F250 or smaller truck is a class 3. Though some will have slightly higher gross weight depending on exacallly how they are fitted. However I never recommend towing at the maximum limit of what a hitch is rated for, since I have a sneaking suspicion the auto manufacturers try and push this beyone what is safe.

    Once you have the properly sized hitch you also need to make sure that the breaking system and horsepower of the tow vehicle can actually handle the extra loads of having something in tow. This is normally done by ordering a towing package from the factory, which can include any or all of: stiffer springs, air springs, overload or air assist shocks, larger sway bars or automatic transmission fluid (ATF) cooler.

    If you are set on one of these two boats one being 2400lbs and the other being 7000 and you are sure you want to trailor it then the 2400lbs one will be much easier to handle and won't require as much special equipment. Normally though a 7K lbs boat would be left in the water, and so long as the bottom is properly prepared this is not a problem.
     
  5. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    7000 lb is about 3.15 t, add a tonne for the trailer itself and you're up to about four tonnes of towed weight. In most of North America it's legal to tow that on a standard driver's licence, ie. you don't usually need a trucker's licence (check with your state DMV, of course).

    4 tonnes is pushing the limits of what a typical 150-series pickup can handle. (For example- the Ford F150 carries a tow rating between 5400 to 11300 lb, depending on drivetrain and frame configuration, but the highest rating is only available in the long-wheelbase version with the biggest V8 and deepest rear axle ratio.)

    It is, however, well within the capabilities of any of the Big Three's heavy-duty pickups.

    Keep in mind, though, that four tonnes is a flippin' HUGE trailer. It would be quite a handful to store, and at forty feet long to carry a 30' boat, would be a pain to back up through a corner at the launch ramp.

    If trailering frequently is in the cards, lightweight is a big, big plus. If you're towing 7000 lb, the extra few hundred bucks for an electric winch will not be noticed after spending $65,000 on a truck and trailer.
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You don't need a winch rated for 7,000 pounds for a 7,000 pound boat. The weight of a boat, that is winched onto a trailer is floating weight and the winch actual see's very little of this, maybe several hundred pounds at most. This of course assumes the boat is being loaded properly and not being dragged bodily up the trailer bunks. For this you'd need at least a 7,000 pound winch, maybe a 10,000 pounder, because of the friction and incline it must over come.

    Hand cranking a 7,000 boat is pretty simple. I have a 6,000 pound Chris Craft that I hand crank, though I don't have to very often, because the trailer is setup right and I float the boat right onto the bow chock and bunks, no winching required. I also use an aluminum trailer (as Matt mentioned) towing weight is a real issue, so losing a ton can be the difference between going or staying home.

    Launching a 30' boat isn't an easy thing and is better left to a marina's travel lift or crane. Most public ramps (95%) will not accommodate a 30' boat. The trailer's tires will fall off the wet end of the ramp, long before the average 30' boat is ready to float off it's trailer. My Chris is 27' and I have only a few locations I can launch, for this reason. You don't want the tires to fall off the edge of the ramp, hauling a 7,000 pound boat, trust me.

    Frankly, once you get much over 26' to 27', you're in holy grail territory. This is a serious load, requiring good brakes, sway control, meaningful driving skill, a truck set up to do the deed, ditto the trailer. There are simply some places you just can't go, which unfortunately most times means, you've driven into a spot you can't get through and now have to test your backing up skills. Backing a rig like that around a 90 degree side street with cars on each side will test your nerves and make you buy bigger mirrors the next time out.
     
  7. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    As a rough estimate of the maximum load you'll actually have to pull with the trailer winch, try the weight of your boat times the sine of the angle of the steepest launch ramp you'll ever use, and add about 0.1 times your boat's weight to allow for friction between the hull and bunks. If you stick to ramps of 10 degrees or less, that's 7000*(sin(10) + 0.1) =~ 1920 lb.

    Keep in mind that that figure would be for winching the boat completely out of the water onto the bunks. You never do that- you back the trailer in a bit, so the boat is partly floating and the load on the winch is much lower. Don't forget, of course, that the tie-downs (and the cleats/hardpoints to which they fasten) need to be able to hold boat and trailer together under loads of several times the boat's weight, ie. if you lose control of the trailer the boat shouldn't go flying off under loads of 2-3 G or more.

    Now, as PAR has quite rightly pointed out, hauling something this size requires good equipment, good driving skill (if you aren't a trucker, at least take the first day or two of a trucking course) and a kick-*** set of mirrors. I've had to back a 20' truck / 30' trailer out of a parking lot maze and, believe me, it is not fun. You only do that once before learning to park illegally on the side of the road instead....
     
  8. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Something else I just thought of is that many states regulate the maximum distance from the fron of the tow vehicle to the back of the trailor. I am not sure what this is in Tenn, but a 30' boat on a 40' trailor with a 20' truck maxes out at about 60' I don't think this is over the max in Tennessee which I believe is 72' but you may want to check on this. The only way around it that I know of is with either a commercial permit or an oversized load permit, perhaps both.
     
  9. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    On small boats the trailer is longer than the boat. On long boats the trailer is shorter than the boat. The reason is simply that the long piece of metal behind the wheels doesn't do anything, except bend.

    As Par indicated you don't want to fall off the edge of a slipway. On the other hand if the slipway has the correct slant, a 10m boat should be afloat before the trailer wheels fall off. If it doesn't have the right slant you may consider launch beside the ramp if there is place.

    On such a heavy rig it is always going to be an issue gettig it up and off the trailer, although we have some 3500kg x 9m ski boats being towed here. The guy never goes out alone, I asked him :D You also never trailer at speed and invest in disk brakes on all fours of the trailer, forget drum brakes. The boat I saw had a huge winch, I'm sure it was custom made. Probably 10 ton or something, but it was big like in big big.
     
  10. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    I think even the 24 footer would be better off left in the water, but for the time each 6 months to repaint. I can hire someone to move the boat and save space of a trailer in my backyard for something better. I will just have to find out what the cost of keeping the boat at a marina. I see either boat is going to be a problem for trailering, but one more than the other.

    That is all good advice!! I appreciate it and now I've got to come up with something better!! I don't think a trailer of my own and having the boat in my yard is going to work. I'll have to learn more about marinas and renting a spot.

    I see what you mean by winch weight, but if it's in my backyard, getting it onto the trailer once it's built would be the problem and bear the most weight until it's floating weight. Can two winches split the weight? Two 3500 pounders could be hooked up to them, but way too much money. The trailer set up would cost more than the boat and cheaper to be left in the water at a marina I hope. It would be convenient though.

    Thanks a lot! I get a lot of good advice here. I'm glad you guys answered.
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You can't look at winches as a dead pull, unless you're lifting something straight up. If you're dragging something, you'll have friction, unless you use rollers.

    I built a log home several years ago. We cut and milled the logs on site and they were 10" square each. They were ungodly heavy and we used a tractor's three point and rollers to move them into place. Once the logs were on rollers, you could move them with one hand. The same is true of a floating boat. You can lean against a 300' freighter and it will eventually move as a result of your pressing on it.

    You can't drag a 7,000 pound boat up onto a trailer, like you can a 1,500 pound ski boat. You have to float it on and float it off. If you want to rip the bow eye or deck cleat off your boat, you can try to drag it up onto an inclined trailer's bunks, but trust me, you will rip out the cleat.

    If you're moving the boat around in your yard, then use a gin pole, back hoe, chain fall, etc. to move the boat. I move big weights all the time and you can easily drop stuff, usually just when it would be most ill advised, very easily, if you haven't prepared for the weight.

    Yes, double winches will half the work load, but they have to have exactly the same tension on each or one will be doing more work and things tend to break in a violent way when this happens.

    The easiest way to get a boat on a trailer is to jack up the boat, place shores and braces, remove the keel supports and slide the trailer under the boat, then lower it down again. I've got big trees, so I usually hoist, but most have to jack and brace to get it high enough for a trailer to back under it.

    Remove fenders, take the air out of tires, whatever it requires to get the trailer under the boat.

    You can also built a "gantry" type of thing over the boat and drop a couple of chain falls down to hoist it clear, so the trailer can go under. This is relatively simple and safe, if you make everything heavier then it seems like it would need.

    Think it out, draw up some sketches, you can figure it out. Honestly, if you have access to a back hoe or front end loader, use it. It's so much safer and faster, knowing the boat can't possibly collapse whatever your using to lift it. Cranes are nice, but many areas don't have one. I used a crane this summer it cost 300 bucks for me to snatch the deep finned sailboat straight up off it's supports, 30' into the air, swing over and past a tree, then down onto a trailer parked 50' away. It took about 2 hours, from start to finish, including setting up the trailer supports to fit the boat, keel blocking, etc.

    That's me. The bottom of the keel is about 6' off the ground and it's still not clear of the braces and supports. A well spent 300 bucks.
     

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  12. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    If you are putting the boat in your back yard that has water front access you may want to look at having a dock installed. depending on your water access and skill level they can be built relatively cheap, and shouldn't take too much time to complete. There are even a number of places that sell kits to build floating docks that go together very easily. You could also pay to have a permanent dock installed, but this will be more expensive, and probably involve a bunch of permitting problems.

    The other option would be to look for a local yacht club and see if they have a club crane. Many of them do, that allows for boats up to about 4,000lbs to be launched from the trailor without having to mess with a ramp. If this is an option and you don't want to leave the boat in the water it is normally a little cheaper than a slip, though it does make it more problematic to go out for a quick day sail.
     
  13. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    The boat has a total of 1 feet of draft on one boat and 1 foot and 8 inches on the other. Since I can't take the boat out of the water to store it, it will cost about 1200 dollars a year to put it in a marina, or 110 dollars a month. That's not bad, if it takes 300 dollars every time to move it and then money for the trailer to buy or rent.

    I am going with the 30 footer for more space. It would have to stay in the water anyways, so why not have the extra 6 feet. The weight won't matter if it's floating, but to pull it out of water to do maintenance will be more. I believe 7000 is with ballast so it will be lighter.

    I checked into prices and that is the way to go. For transferring, you might use house jacks under timber to hoist it onto a trailer, and rollers under them would work so long as you have a trailer than can adjust around the keel. The keel is either a centerboard or a daggerboard, and the housing for the centerboard will be about 8 inches.

    I definitely will have to hire to get it in the water, but what I was thinking was to build it in halves and put the halves together on location. If not, I'll rent a space and build it next to the water. I don't have lake property, but I'm within 2 or 3 miles of a river. I'm sure I may find other moorings for the boat to save money, but the marina offers the most so far.

    Thanks on the information. I"m looking into things now. Boats cost money for sure, but the freedom of traveling by water is well worth it. The freeways don't offer the view or the relaxation. I don't want to mess with a huge trailer that big in these sharp roads, so many twists and turns, no one would be willing to move it for me. It will just have to stay in the water.

    Thanks again. Step by step, I'm finding lots of things to think about for owning a boat. I'm determined to build this boat, but I think it will take more than a few years to get it in the water. That is the bad part. Someone should be very very sure of what they want and what they need before buying or building a boat.

    I've seen boats made to come apart for easier storage, so maybe this plan can be done that way. I'll have to find out.


    Thanks again!!
     
  14. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member


  15. blackdaisies
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    blackdaisies Senior Member

    It's tunnel hull too. That is cool! I've seen 30 footers without a cabin fold over the top of each other, seen them build take apart canoes in sections, so being the boat is only 7 feet wide, it shouldn't be a problem to have two sections. I guess that would be up to the professional designer to create.

    It would be nice!!
     
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