Making a high efficency 3 Kw DC Generator

Take care !
It is just like drugs...You start with a beer, finish in a carbon racer with solar panels, windmill and lithium batteries

 

Running a diesel without flywheel ?

Does anyone knows if a 400cc 7 Kw monocylinder diesel (1GM10 yanmar by exemple) can run without the flywheel, so with just the generator/motor connected to the crank ?


Minimum rpm can be 1500/1800 Rpm as the use is generator.
A good damper pulley can be added on the crankshaft to clear vibrations.

The idea behing this is to save 15 Kg...

Of course you will tell me how do you start it ?

So here is the second question :

Can an 5 Kw electric BLDC motor with the controler, without reduction, directly connected to the crank can start a diesel ?

The idea behind is to get a light and inexpensive generator...

 

Without the rotational inertia of the flywheel, a single-cylinder diesel will not run very well, if at all. The connected equipment would have to be heavy enough, with enough rotational inertia, to compensate for the loss of the flywheel. I don't really see much of a point to this line of reasoning- if saving 15 kg is that critical, forget about diesel and find a ten-horse Honda gas engine.
May I ask what, exactly, is a 5 kW BLDC motor doing connected to the crank of such an engine? That's an awfully expensive motor and controller, to do a job that could be done just as well and at much lower cost by a couple of big alternators.

 

kistinie, a German? product that I hope to use - try googling "Torqeedo" there is 2 models that may suit you at 2000w and 4000w peak draw to deliver 6 to 9.9 hp equivalent hp - talk is that will soon be able to regen and when not needed just tilt up as one would for an outboard... Australian website http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/To...les/CruiseRemote_4kW_1pager_US-letter_fin.pdf will get you the product in pdf - it has the German head office at the very bottom...

If you are determined to use a small gas engined genset there is a honda based one http://www.olbis.com.au/ap_template/subcat_generators.asp or in diesel http://www.onsitepower.com.au/products/marine/dc100m.htm sorry no European websites but I am sure you could find a local source. The Kubota has a good reputation as does the honda and parts are everywhere...

 

Sjeees... 6 pages and you guys haven't figured out an efficient genny.

How big is a diesel ? On some cars they are integrating the starter motor to double as an alternator, however, this is not the thing anyone can just bolt on to the motor and you sail off into the sunset. It is specially and carefully designed to do that and is only a recent development.

A 5kW BLDC motor is a big mawer and as Matt said friggin expensive. A starter is designed to produce high torque for a short time. An alternator is designed to only generate power, all the time. A motor does generate some power, but the energy required to use it as a generator makes it unefficient.

There is a reason the starter doesn't double as a generator. Usually if the motor has high torque characteristics it generates less power. If it generates more power the torque may be up to...

He he.. if you don't believe me swap the starter and the alternator in your car

There is no real efficient way of generating power or energy that is commercially available...

 

OK fanie I did not see the part where a starter-motor was used as the DC generator, but some maring electric motors have regen capabilities when the screw is put into the flow whilst the boat is under sail-power - "re-epower" and I think "FischerPanda" & "PolarPower" as well as "AfricanCats", have that option in their pulse-mode electric drive motors.

I think the lady was after a small cheap petrol/gas air cooled wet exhaust DC genset up to 4000w at 48v to charge batteries on her lightweight small trimaran.

I also am looking for same but for me liquid (seawater) cooled diesel and preferably using the FischerPanda or PolarPower alternator 12 or 16 poles brushless direct connect "replacing" the flywheel (as is done by PolarPower & a 2 cyl volvo engine now) on a 902cc Kubota 3 cyl diesel for 8KW peak at 48 V DC nominal to charge spiral wound AGM style batteries, for house and primary propulsion (2 x Torqeedo cruise 4000W units).... Otherwise I will have to settle for the less efficient 24v truck alternators set in series to give 48V and off a v or flat grooved belt system (a pair of smaller engines with 2 x 24V 166 - 200A alternators? can that be done? )

 

i was thinking of diesel as i already own 2, 1GM10 yanmar in good working condition

Reason of BLDC+controller is to have regulation of current and the starter function. This combination will give a true "inverter generator" for very low additional cost

Looking closer to my diesel, without flywheel, unnecessary bits... and flywheel carter ... the 1GM10 equipped in running order goes gown to 55 Kg

Of course i agree, an electric start Honda motor is a great choice with just 28Kg.
this kind of very light diesel could be a solution too
http://secure.genquip.com.au/specsheets/pdf/186E.pdf

Torqueedo is fine, but quite expensive and is using high speed motor that brings me a few interrogations about longevity and also i really think a CPP is compulsory for regenerating on boats like mine going most of the time over 12 Knts.
it seems impossible to do regeneration and propulsion with the same pitch if your ship sails 2 to 3 times faster than it motors.

48v alternator exists, no need to use two 24v :
http://www.electrodyne.com/models.html
others can be found from Leroy sonner



http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/2-3,5kw_propane.htm
with this
http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/heat_exchanger/heat_exchanger.htm
Perfect !
Maybe not on propane as my ship configuration is too dangerous to stock propane

Exactly what i was looking for...
to be perfect i would like a fuel injection instead of a carburettor.

Just need to find a little more $$ €€ but total price could be under 4000$
Many thanks Masalai !

 

Do you have more information on the torqeedo r4 or r2 series like detail on the drive units and any other specifications beyond the pdf link? I have seen the r2 (very light and appropriate for my boat design - which has a maximum design weight of 4800kg at 11.9m x 6.2m cat)

On a diesel you MUST have a flywheel - preferable to the weight of the original manufacture or more as Marshmat suggested and Fanies advice (stater-motor / generator are NOT congruent in one unit. - lighter weight is achieved with each part doing its designed function separately...

Can you weld (or do a training course, which has as a component at a "skills development college" to make something useful - and make your wet exhaust (what is shown is an exhaust gas heat exchanger - slightly different function) but both can be made with expert tuition in a training session....

Polar Power has nice stuff, but their website is very-much out of date as the Lombardini diesels and lots of other stuff is not available???????? Wake up America...

Be weary of the high speed diesels single cylinder as they are basically 12month throw-away - shake themselves apart and very noisy (I do not know the ones in your link) - but the ones we used in PNG, were from China, cheap and justified on basis of low cost during exploration for minerals, then sell/dispose...

Thank you for the electrodyne link for alternators - I don't know if they are carried by any distributors/OEM's in Australia????

 

A diesel CAN be started by a generator just the way i imagined

http://www.steyr-motors.com/products/pdf/hybrid.pdf

Bad news if flywheel is compulsory on diesel...it is not going in the weight reduction direction i was looking for

On petrol race engines flywheel it is optional !
i run TR3 2.4Liter engine (Massey Ferguson Tractor engine from Standard) with a 4 or 6 Kg (done long ago not shure) aluminium flywheel...

And by the way, a motorcycle high performance 125 to 250cc scooter engine redlined 5/6000 Rpm, used at 4500rpm (that should be max torque) could be a smart solution to improve Watt/weight ratio of a generator
Runs with fuel injection, weight nothing, part available worldwide
With good synthetic oils, high speed engines last for long.

I weld TIG/MIG so i could make my own exhaust.
i think it also could be done just by machining titanium tubes for a very moderate price
Titanium can be cut, drilled, and milled with SS316 tools and speeds. No change, just the tubes to pay 45€/Kg for grade 2 (density is 4) so metal will cost 5 times more and if no welding is possible labour will be the same.




About torqueedo, i will have a look but i recall the best i found was on a Belgium site giving more info.
you can write directly as they also reply to questions very kindly

For a 5 tons cat, with low windage, two 5Kw engines should be ok, but i underline that i am now certain that looking for a good CPP is the very best investment for an electric propulsion/regen on a fast cat or tri

About Polarpower site is last revised in 2005 just like price list...Are they out of business ?

 

Neither have responded to emails yet (sent a week ago)... Australia is too hard/far away?

 

Rather too far ...from reason and mankind

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

Short term behaviour, fast money big profits only, for friends mainly.
The 15% you give to fund hedges will not go in research and development ...what we exactly do here.
No time, no money to loose with guys like you and me.
Futur ? They do not care, they will serve us the same soup, the same GM 3 tons truck till 2020 if possible


We all have the same problem as long as we deal with one off project and new behaviour

Even a builders like Tournier
http://www.tourniermarine.com/
Do not get answer when they ask info for their 70' hybrid project...

Come back to torqueedo with a 500 units boat project, they will be your best friend.

To be honest, i am fed up with this general attitude so i now avoid manufacturers too tired to answer questions and start to think about manufacturing my own products

 

If you buy a gen set you have to decide what it is that you buy.

Most gen sets output 230V AC, which is ok if you run mains things. On a boat if it is 24V then it would be better to get a 24V gen set.

4000W at 230VAC = 17Amp
4000W at 24VDC = 166Amp
4000W at 12VDC = 330Amp

Quite a bit of difference between their current capabilities. If you would be happy with the extra weight of a transformer, go for the 230VAC gen set, you can have 230VAC, 24VAC and 12VAC. You will have to get a rectifier and some smoothing to make the low voltages usable.

 

Hydraulic powered alternators are probably what you need . They are either 12V 24V , or , in your case 48V DC , but they are specialty sealed units .
They are powered by , oddly enough , a propellor at the end of a line ,
which is left trailing behind the boat . They can cost upwards of $2,300.00
because they are above deck - in the elements . An alternator on an engine
needs a certain RPM to generate electricity . Maybe 1,200 -1,400 RPM .
It needs a constant application of this . If you stop rotating it , or
it slows below charging RPM , it doesn't produce any charge at all .
Unlike a fixed magnet generator , an alternator uses field EMF interaction
to generate charge . The field charge (from battery) must be there , and
the RPM must be there . A rare earth (magnetic) generator doesn't need
a charge present to generate , and also doesn't need high RPM's like an
alternator does . A fixed magnet generator needs lower RPM , and will
charge a system that is completely depleated . It sounds as though this may
be what you need . I'm assuming that you're trying to avoid situations
where your radios and lights no longer work because your battery is depleated
from long applied loads .
markalfredsteele@yahoo.ca

 

No compromize

:!:
No i can't accept a transformer or any other heavy solution
i am rather in a kind of spirit to cut my tooth brush's handle ...

i already have a trailing generator
Great for safety, but maladapted for long term (sharks, sae weeds, plastics bags...)

Rpm just changes frequency, and as i produce DC current...no problemo

Polar power is a perfect exemple of what i am looking for

 

its a pity

Matt, Masalai, Fanie: your valuable contribution to this thread is just a waste of time. This guy will never comprehend that his ideas are just phantasy. Nor does he accept your input if the result is´nt as he likes it to be.

and: "machining titanium tubes for a very moderate price"
or: "i underline that i am now certain that looking for a good CPP is the very best investment for an electric propulsion/regen"
or: "BLDC+controller is to have regulation of current and the starter function. This combination will give a true "inverter generator" for very low additional cost"

show very clear, this bloke asks for high tech at bargain prices and he will not accept technical restrictions or contradictions. He will continue to ask his idiotic questions as long as one answers.

He´s replacing a reliable, cheap, low weight Diesel with a electric propulsion and CPP system to save weight and cost (installation and operational). And if thats not possible (as many of us told him in the past 6 weeks), well he opens another discussion `cos he likes to make it possible.
He is a proven ***** thats all, do´nt waste your precious time.

Regards
Richard