MacGregor 26 not good? Water-ballast in general??

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by Tres Cool, Jul 1, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
    Posts: 2,161
    Likes: 53, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 575
    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    Hey anyone want to start a real fight? Heard of MacGregor 65

    Yep, MacGregor 65

    A big, fast sailboat used in racing. All most bought one.
    The hull was so little it would fly. People used to strip them of all interiors reinforce them and race them, but they didnt last long.

    But that was a fast sailboat...
     
  2. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 3,730
    Likes: 123, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1404
    Location: maine

    alan white Senior Member

    MacGregor is not producing time-tested designs. Their efforts have been to attempt to capture a particular market, and they have decided that in order to capture that market, they must build a boat differently in order to avoid comparisons with existing boats, which would necessarily out-class an inexpensive same-goal competitor on a point for point basis.
    The marketing would be aimed at non-sailors. The marketing would hinge on a particular way of buying rather than depending on deep analysis of the product. In fact, the way of buying and the deeper analysis could be said to be mutually opposite logics. The way of buying would depend on an avoidance, either accidental or on purpose, of conventional wisdom. Conversely, a deep analysis would consider all conventional wisdom as valuable.
    Conventional wisdom has spoken here. It has said that the boat is not fit for much more than nearshore jaunts in moderate to light weather and relatively smooth seas. I agree. And I wonder how many would have sold had each and every salesman mentioned this up front.

    Alan

    It is, perhaps, a revolutionary marketing scheme, but the boat itself is not an engineering triumph at all. Nothing has been "invented". If I decide I want to build a boat that is a sailer and also a pontoon boat, that does not make me imaginative. It merely makes me a marketing genious if I can sell thousands of them. Bear in mind, I am selling to the uninformed, and not turning an existing sport on its head. The uninformed have nothing to compare with. They did not buy a normal sailboat because they not only didn't ask seasoned sailors what to buy, but they also decided that asking what experience had to say was not important.
     
  3. Pierre R
    Joined: May 2007
    Posts: 461
    Likes: 32, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 458
    Location: ohio, USA

    Pierre R Senior Member

    After looking at Mighetto's blog I can see what you mean about enthusiastic.

    He even tries to change the definition of heavy weather and blue water to suit the McGregor. The numbers for the McGregor might suggest blue water but the build quality definitely does not.
     
  4. HDSW
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 2
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 21
    Location: usa

    HDSW New Member

    There seems to be a lot of opinions floating around about the M26 and I am not sure how much of them are based on experience and how much on hearsay. I have been sailing for 45+ years on a wide variety of sailboats including Victories, folkboats, C&N, S&S, Swallows, Carters, Westerlies, J24's, Hunters, etc. I have had extensive offshore and local racing experience, cruising and passage making both in the Channel / Western seaboard of Europe and the West coast of the USA. I have been the owner of a M26 for the last 2 years which I have sailed in the Pacific North West.

    First let me say that anyone who takes a M26 or any other boat out in conditions that they or the boat are not prepared for are in serious danger; the sea is totally unforgiving.

    Talking specifically about the M26 I have been very surprised by it in a number of ways:

    I think that for the price point it is remarkably well made. Mine is 5 years old and looks like new, the hull and fittings show no signs of undue wear and are remarkably solid. You would have to push remarkably hard to get the hull to deform. Is it a C&N or an S&S? No it's not, but then it’s not sold as such. All in all I have seen much worse build quality on boats which are much more expensive, and it does have windows!

    I too was rather dismissive of it as a sailing boat and it taught me a lot very quickly:) It is not a standard sailboat at all, nor a motor boat. It has very unique characteristics both as a sailboat and a motorboat and is considerably more complex than either in use. It has been a very interesting experience for me and has yet again reinforced the knowledge that boats and sailing are a continuous learning process. I have to say that the idea that they are beginner’s boats is a little surprising, I would much prefer to learn to sail on a small Catalina or Hunter than a M26; they are a lot simpler!

    Within the limitations that it has it is a good sailboat. It isn’t going to be the best pointing boat out there, nor the most stable. I wouldn’t like to go blue water in it but then I wouldn’t like to go blue water in any 26 footer. In strong winds it is not as stiff as I would like but then I have had a 3/4 ton race boat lay flat in the water too. It will teach you how to sail and it will do that well.

    With regard to the specific question about the water ballast I would say that this works remarkably well. It, along with the centerboard and twin (very large) drop rudders, gives the boat a unique sailing characteristic, as I said it is not a stiff boat but is rather better than I expected.

    As far as the marketing goes I was never told by anyone that it was an offshore cruiser and I’m surprised that anyone would think that the majority of its purchasers were interested in offshore, heavy weather use. The extensive documentation that comes with the boat is very clear about usage and what is dangerous practice in the M26. Personally I am now of the age that when heavy weather is in the offing I’m heading for the harbor and I must admit a 50hp motor and 20 Knot speed to get me there is very comforting.

    The bottom line is that this is an interesting boat which can introduce people to the sport easily and cheaply and they can learn how to sail on. Like any boat it should be only operated within its limitations and that of its users and learning those limitations is a key element of sailing. I think a person who was taught to sail on a M26 by a reputable school or experienced sailor would be much safer than a beginner on their own in a conventional keelboat who thinks that they are “safe” boats because that’s what “seasoned” sailors have implied in forums such as these. A M26 is not inherently more dangerous than any other boat, its people that cause tragedies not boats.

    Finally I would say to all those armchair critics (of anything) that they should cultivate an open mind and look on every boat, sea condition and landfall as a great learning experience rather than the opportunity to push some ill informed prejudices; you'll find it much more fun!
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
    Posts: 3,590
    Likes: 130, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2369
    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    Marshmat -
    But why, I ask again? Is there suddenly something wrong with, or naive about a person who would like a trailerable sailboat that has greater than average performance under power? Sure - there are compromises to be had, just as there is with almost any design decision. But just because these criteria don't suit most "real" sailors, doesn't mean they only suit inexperienced ones.
    This last post, by HDSW (welcome BTW), proves the point.

    The choice not to go blue water sailing is more often than not one that comes as a result of experience, rather than a lack of it!

    Build quality &/or marketing are really separate issues IMHO
     
  6. HDSW
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 2
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 21
    Location: usa

    HDSW New Member

    Thanks Will

    Um, well actually I do go blue water but I have an 80ft Ketch in Mexico with dual 300hp Mercedes engines and all the latest systems for that :). I still head for the harbor when there is a hurricane warning though.

    The reasons I have the M26 here in Seattle are:

    1. I can trail it to my local lake in 10 mins, the Puget Sound in 30 mins and be in the San Juans in a couple of hours. I can even be in Canada in a morning; thousands of miles of wonderful shoreline. Try that with a keelboat.
    2. The wind is rubbish for decent sailing here because of the mountains so all too often you end up motoring home anyway.
    3. When it rains (and it does!) I have a comfortable cabin and cover.
    4. It draws so little with the ballast out that I can just pull it up on the beach for a picnic or overnight in the islands without worrying about anchors or slips.
    5. I can leave it in a car space in a secure public store next to the launch and not pay exorbitant moorage or layover.
    6. It actually very interesting to sail; there are all sorts of additional combinations of rudders, centerboard and ballast to play with which I have not had before.

    So it lets me sail whenever I want, wherever I want, cheaply and without too much hassle.

    Of course I can’t set off for Hawaii in it and I have to put up with the sneers of the "proper" sailors..

    Every boat is a compromise and the M26 does have a place at the dock.
     
  7. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 4,127
    Likes: 149, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2043
    Location: Ontario

    marshmat Senior Member

    Absolutely nothing wrong with that, no. I think of the boat that way because most of the McGregors around here show up in the driveway of people who are interested in getting into boating, but don't know what their style is. So they get an inexpensive boat that's a bit of everything and do short trips with it for a few years. Once they know what boating's like and have a better idea of what they want to do on the water, the M26 tends to be sold to another newbie as its first owners switch to either a sailing or motorsailing yacht, or a motor cruiser. Not everyone's this way of course, but that's how the Macs tend to be used around here. Nobody seems to trust them beyond sight of land, but they get you to nice inland lakes where keelboats and big stink-pots can't go as well as being able to cover a fair chunk of inshore waters if the weather's OK.
     
  8. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 6,163
    Likes: 495, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1749
    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    Ex owners opinion

    I sold my Macgregor over 4 years ago (after 18 months) for financial reasons. Over the years, I have read a lot of stuff and had a lot of things said about MacGregors. I researched the fatalities in the macgregor in that famous accident - anyone who puts eleven people on a Macgregor with no ballast doesnt have any idea. I and other owners used to get nervous with 6 people. Its only a big dinghy after all.

    The other day one old salt gave me a lecture on how ugly things like stern hung rudders, outboards etc etc. I said "you are into boating for the aesthetics". he said "yes, of course". I said "I am into boats for aesthetics too - the aesthetics of the places that boats take you to. " I would be as happy on a raft ( with a decent toilet, shower and a warm cabin of course) if it was in some picturesque waterway.

    Macgregors take a hiding for their sailing ability - well they are only about 6 knots slower than the speediest boats in their class, and thats just walking pace. Sailing is a nice experience, and I have done my time "around the sticks" - and realised that the only difference between winning sailing boats is the amount of money the owners can afford. No way am I stupid enough to spend $100k on a mast!!! Sailing is great when you are not in a hurry, the sun is out and the breeze is good.

    Power is good when 1) The engine runs, 2) The wind and weather is bad, and you want to drive from inside a warm cabin 3) You need to actually get somewhere fast

    If you can show me a more cost effective way of getting comfortable speed with great internal comfort, I would be very interested.

    The 'pointy caravan' is easy to tow home (saves marina costs) and easy to tow around the country. It fits into lakes, is not too scary offshore in reasonable weather. Mr Macgregor deserves all the sales - to people (and their families) who arn't into the expensive death defying heavy weather offshore trip, or the ego trippers who hang their self esteem (and their wallets) on finishing first after circling around the same old circuit week after week.

    Anyone who 'does a number' on macgregors, is just not appreciating one other dimension to the on water experience - and I wont buy Nikes or Ipods either, there are plenty of better value options out there.
     
  9. hansp77
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 690
    Likes: 34, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 200
    Location: Melbourne Australia

    hansp77

    There has been some good comments in this thread.

    I am always curious about the ctitical frenzy surrounding M26's, enhanced because my Uncle owns an older one (not the X), and I sail on it quite regularly.

    This was not his first boat, in fact it must be around his 4th or 5th.
    It wasn't a lack of experience that lead him to it, but rather his accumulated experience and assesment of his own needs.
    He keeps it parked on its trailer in a secure marina, directly in front of the ramp, 5 minutes from his home, ready to go. You drive in, reverse it in, and you are in the water in 10 minutes. In summer, he can get a few hours sailing in on weekdays after work.
    He day-sails it in our local Bay, at least every week, mostly with his wife and young 2 boys, a friend, or on his own, for this reason naturally avoiding bad conditions, and would never take it into blue water.
    Every year he trailers it far away to Lakes Entrance (with his normal car- a Cherokee) another sheltered sailing ground, for some cruising with the family, made easier and more affordable by leaving the ballast at home;) .
    For him it works well. He knows what use he wants out of his boat, and he gets it. He wanted this particular boat and model bad enough to ship one over from the states (at a considerable saving) and feels confident of the value of his investment holding well in comparison to other boats (due to continued demand).
    Hell, all he does is sail in it. There is an outboard on it, but I would be surprised if it is powerfull enough to get it beyond hull speed.
    Of course he has dreams of one day getting a bigger boat, more blue water capable, but until the day his needs require this, and the day his wife and kids are ready for blue water sailing, then the M26 fullfills his particular needs very well.

    I can't say it is the boat for me. Even though I am a inexperienced sailor and am no where near heading into blue water myself, I like it that my boat is designed and built to take me there (as it took the previous owner). I look at all the stays on his boat, and they look like they could all together be wound up as the strands within just one of my fore or aft stays. Other elements of the construction are equally alarming to me- major load bearing bolts, attatchments and fittings simply screwed or bolted straight through the thin deck with no backing or support. And it goes on.
    Also, the sailing is not exactly how I prefer it, very heavy on the helm (my boat is light as a feather) heels very easily and sort of fragile. But I think what others have said is true, it certainly has tought me alot about sailing.
    This is a boat with a specific use in mind, built and designed for.
    Use it for that, and you should be fine. Just like everything else, take it beyond that, and you are taking your life into your own hands.

    Often it seems to me that a lot of us boat owners (me included) are like those big city 4xwheel drivers (SUV's). We have them all over the place here- cars built specifically for off-road use, never leaving the bitumen. We like the idea that one day, maybe, if we ever want to, we can just take-off and drive up a mountain. Most of us never do- kudos to those of you who do take your blue water capable boats to blue water regularly. I would like to one day- or so the dream goes.
    For those that are content to drive their family around in a daggy econovan instead of a Hummer, because it will get you to where you want to go- kudos to you too.
     
  10. Olivebank
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: East Coast U.S.

    Olivebank m/s 'Olivebank'

    Having NO boat is what I call having a "bad" boat. I hate labels. But, in all honesty, we bought an extremely well built, solid, sturdy OLD (needing tons of work!) boat rather than trust our fate to a brand new Clorox bottle. Egads, did I say that? I didn't mean it, honest. Of course, if I had unlimited financial resources, I might go for an Island Packet....
    Best regards,
    Olivebank
    http://www.eastcoasthorizon.com/Claymore/index.htm
     
  11. RonR
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 28
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Alabama

    RonR Junior Member

    Unfortunately may have to await my next coming to afford the time to enjoy fixing up an older boat, such as the OLIVEBANK -Claymore .....Lovely job BTW.and lovely web site.

    We retired 6 yrs ago, bought our 1st ever sailboat......Yes, a Mac 26X and have loved the experience ever since, and wherever we go, so goes the Mac.

    We sail the summer months in Prince Edward Island,Canada, then spring and fall (4 months) Alabama, and 4 months in the south of Texas. Always in protected waters(ICW, coastal bays, etc) Six years into it and still neophytes. To some this may not 'be sailing' but, who cares......???:) :) :)
     
  12. Squidly-Diddly
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 1,957
    Likes: 176, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 304
    Location: SF bay

    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    MacGregor should have twin fresh water ballast bags inside

    the water ballast tanks, installed through round hatches cut into the tanks. These could be used to transfer a lot of weight quickly and safely from side to side so that using water as ballast (vs lead carried deep) could become an asset not a 'compromise'.

    Also nice to have 60 gallons or so of fresh water.

    The bags could also be rigged to "blow" for as low pressure compressed air would be one way to pump the water from side to side.

    Also, the fixed lead keel needs to be replaced with 6-8 marine batteries. If the batts go dead they will still function at ballast. It would also be nice to be able to toss the weight overboard in emergency, or loan out a batt or two.

    Both these mods could be done without effecting the existing dynamics of the boat, just some interior fiberglass cutting and remodeling that wouldn't even need to be re-finished cosmetically.

    PS due to tightening regs, it might be useful to install holding tank bags as well.
     
  13. Guillermo
    Joined: Mar 2005
    Posts: 3,644
    Likes: 189, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2247
    Location: Pontevedra, Spain

    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Well, not only for racing: when I was living in Mexico I introduced one of my best mexican friends into sailing. We jointly bought a 1986 Mc Gregor 25 (not water ballast but a winged keel) and sailed it from Key West to Cancún in a week or so, and after that just in Cancun´s surrounding waters.

    A few years later this now salty seafarer divorced, bought a McGregor 65, got a new girl and went to cruise westward around the globe, which took them 4 years. At that time I was already back in Spain and he wrote me from time to time telling adventures. Around 1994 they arrived to Barcelona and came to visit me and my family to Vigo. My friend said the McGregor 65 was a fast one and, although always looking for good weather windows when passagemaking, they managed to safely handle some ocasionally pretty strong bad weather.

    Cheers.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Olivebank
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 8
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: East Coast U.S.

    Olivebank m/s 'Olivebank'

    First of all, RonR, thanks for the kind words!! Like I said, the only "bad" boat is NO boat....! Enjoy your Mac!
    And Guillermo... I have to wonder if perhaps a 65 foot Mac that sailed the globe is perhaps built a little more solidly than a 26 footer? Goodness knows, they are expensive enough - I see a 1999 model selling now for $239,500 U.S. Dollars. It ought to be magnificent for that kind of money. Our 1970 Olivebank, in the sad shape that she was, was purchased by us for $7,500.
    Best regards to all -
    Eileen (on m/s Olivebank)
    http://www.eastcoasthorizon.com/Claymore/index.htm
     

  15. chinook
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 2
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Leavenworth, WA

    chinook New Member

    Being a Mac 26X owner since 2002, I've read this thread with interest. I was a newbie sailor at the time of purchase. I had sailed with others on various sized boats, but because of financial status never thought I'd ever own a boat. The Mac's price point put it within my range. More importantly, being trailerable, I could dispense with moorage fees when not actually out on the water. She is moored comfortably in my driveway when not in use. A major attraction was its trailerability. I didn't want to be essentially limited to home waters. I love to explore, and the Mac looked like a boat we could tow to all kinds of great places.

    The Mac is a very stripped down boat on the interior. Mac owners love to "mod" their boats and I'm no exception. We set the boat up for our version of extended cruising. We've increased fuel and water tankage capacity, have built in lots of extra storage, added a cockpit surround, and installed a solar panel and refrigeration, to mention just a few of the things we've done to set her up for cruising.

    The boat has done a great job satisfying my desire to explore a wide variety of waters. In our first season, we sailed on most of the sizeable freshwater lakes here in Washington State, plus the Puget Sound and San Juans. In our second season we spent 11 months doing a circuit of the US, boat in tow. We trailered 16,000 miles, and cruised nearly 2000 nm. Waters experienced included Jackson Lake in the Tetons, Yellowstone Lake, Isle Royale on Lake Superior, the North Channel of Georgian Bay on Lake Huron, Lake Champlain, the coast of Maine from Southwest Harbor to Deer Isle, the ICW from Chesapeake Virginia to St. Augustine FL, the Everglades out of Flamingo up as far as Everglades City and down to the Keys, a 2 month cruise of the Abacos out of West Palm Beach, and finally a 3 week cruise up Lake Powell. Our third season we cruised up the Inside Passage, from West Vancouver to the head of Glacier Bay and back. In 2006 we trailered up to Tweedsmuir Provincial Park in British Columbia where we sailed up a 35 mile lake, loaded the boat on a rail portage system at the head of the lake, got towed across a half mile isthmus to a spectacular wilderness lake. Pretty cool seeing her "sailing" through the forest, with the mast raised. Summer of 2007 we sailed with friends we met back east on their 32' Caliber, so didn't make any major trips with our boat. This spring we trailered down to San Carlos, Mexico, sailed across the Sea of Cortez and then cruised down to La Paz and back. Upcoming plans include going back east next summer for some time on Chesapeake Bay (son in the Navy, going to be based there), and in the spring after that, we hope to get out to the Exumas.

    Most folks don't use their Macs like we do, but the boat has more than met our needs. Initial price was affordable. We have no fixed moorage costs when not in use. We've been able to explore some of the finest cruising waters in North America. The boat is more than up to the kinds of crossings we've made in Mexico and the Bahamas, with the proviso that we pay very close attention to weather and select the times when we expose ourselves to big stretches of open water. I'm ok with winds up to 20 knots and 6 foot seas if they're spaced out, 3 to 4 feet if they're not. I hide from the rest as best I can. I've noticed that most of the bigger boats (and practically every cruising boat we meet is bigger than us) tend to tuck in when the weather turns nasty. We know we're not bluewater cruisers, but we've enjoyed the world this boat has made accessible to us.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. tonto
    Replies:
    35
    Views:
    20,779
  2. Brenny H
    Replies:
    11
    Views:
    1,780
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.