Low price Catamarans

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by SteveW, Mar 8, 2008.

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  1. ccoh
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Australia

    ccoh New Member

    "You'll have to admit you are paying a much higher cost per pound of displacement than *****'s detractors have indicated. You are paying twice what been-robbed paid. You are also paying about 30% more per pound than the advertised price (Yachtworld) for a Hans Christian 48 delivered to California (built by Pantawee Marine about 6mi from *****'s Huay Yai yard). At about $21US/pound you are definitely a high-bidder for *****'s time and resources."

    Your constant referral to a cost per pound does not, in my case, take account of a significant inventory of equipment included in my fixed price (including a large sail wardrobe), nor of additional modification and design processes that were also built in. Anyway, I am comfortable with the cost and with the quality. If you're not with your boat, then that's your business. As for the Hans Christians, I wouldn't buy one*– just as I wouldn't buy a French or English 'average white boat'.

    As for your comment about *****'s directness, I know of at least TWO instances, one involving a friend of mine, where he dissuaded a client from embarking on a build with an inadequate budget. Maybe some are not direct enough in their questioning, maybe some lack experience in spec'ing a build –all I can say is that this yard has, in the main, done a good job for me.
     
  2. pocketjunk
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: London

    pocketjunk New Member

    A comparison of construction costs based on weight is absurd – it's all about materials and building methods (and, as ccoh points out the quality and array of inventory).

    Carbon fibre and even NidaCare honeycomb (which, I understand from ccoh's blog, is extensively used in his Tiki 38) weigh less than timber but cost more than the heavy, good quality Thai okoume plywood usually used for Tiki 38s and other vessels built in Thailand.

    A sophisticated 60 foot short-handed ocean racer or a 50-foot cruising cat can weigh a hell of a lot less than the 48-foot Thai-built Hans Christians that've been mentioned – but would anyone seriously argue that they should cost the same or less, no matter where or how they're built?

    In any case, it seems to me that this is getting away from the issue raised earlier: which is the competence of ***** **********'s operation. As a client, I am happy to attest to both his competency and honesty.
     
  3. robert self
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    Location: seattle

    robert self Junior Member

    who else uses the metric of cost per pound?

    pocketjunk wrote:

    A comparison of construction costs based on weight is absurd – it's all about materials and building methods (and, as ccoh points out the quality and array of inventory).

    I did not invent the method of making ROUGH cost comparisons using the metric of dollars per pound of displacement. Please read the article
    by Albert Nazarov http://www.amdesign.co.th/28-31-Boat_design.pdf pg. 5. Who is Albert Nazarov? He is the professional naval architect
    in Pattaya, Thailand who computer lofted my monohull and ccoh's Tiki 38 for ***** **********'s yard.

    Nazarov is not an outlier in using this metric. Please also read http://www.kastenmarine.com/offshore.htm scroll down to "Estimating Costs". Micheal Kasten
    is also a professional yacht designer.

    pocketjunk is correct that if you use exotic materials like carbon fiber, nidacore, titanium, etc. IN LARGE QUANTITYS than the metric won't work as well, if at all.
    ***** **********'s yard normally uses non-exotic materials like fiberglass, plywood, epoxy, polyester, steel, cement.

    So I would still say that to get a rough cost estimate use the metric of $ per pound of displacement. But, don't take it from me, read the Nazarov and Kasten articles.

    I hope this has been educational.

    cheers
    rself
     
  4. kengrome
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: Gulf Coast USA

    kengrome Senior Member

    Robert, you're absolutely correct. That comment by pocketjunk is the only absurd thing I've read here lately. If anyone asks me how much I would charge for a large catamaran I will always give him a preliminary cost estimate based on the finished hull weight.

    I sure wish people would not post their theories as if they were facts ... :(
     
  5. robert self
    Joined: Dec 2006
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    Location: seattle

    robert self Junior Member

    pocketjunk-what are you building at RBC?

    Hi pocketjunk,

    What's your project at RBC? Does "junk" mean for junkrig?

    cheers
    rself
     
  6. BEEN.DONE.
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: thailand

    BEEN.DONE. Junior Member

    HI AGAIN
    I NOTE THAT THE ONLY POSSITIVE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR RB ARE FROM CUSTOMERS WHOSE BOATS ARE UNFINISHED. IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THEY CANNOT GIVE ***** A BAD REFERENCE. I RECALL CLEARLY THAT I WAS IN A SIMILAR POSITION. WHERE ARE ALL THE HAPPY CUSTOMERS? WHEN THE BOAT GETS "FINISHED" THE DISAPPOINTMENTS BECOME APPARENT. ANY PROBLEMS ARE THE OWNER'S FAULT - CERTAINLY NOT THE BUILDER'S.
    THE ORIGINAL POST FROM STEVEW ASKED FOR ANY INFO ABOUT *****.
    I HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY A FEW POTENTIAL BUYERS. I HOPE THEY TOOK HEED. THIS IS FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE, SO PLEASE BEWARE - YOUR MONEY AND HEARTACHES ARE AT STAKE.
    I HOPE YOU MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION.
    CHEERS ALL
    been.done.already@gmail.com
     
  7. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    I may be deaf, but not quite that deaf?
     
  8. Been-Robbed
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Thailand

    Been-Robbed Junior Member

    I have to agree with Been.Done........

    I was also in a similar situation as far as thinking ***** was a straight shooter up until my last stage payment.

    After that he could give a rat's *** less about you.

    I sincerely hope that anyone who has a current build at his yard will wind up with a quality product, but I honestly believe that is an extreme long shot hope.

    He will rush the job.

    He will not allow the epoxy/wood/glass to cure properly = you get blisters in the hull later on.

    He will use sub-standard metals (he used drywall screws---as in NON-MARINE GRADE) all over my boat......He used them to install the Bose speakers in the cockpit for example.

    He used electrical conduit for the water lines.

    He did not install seacocks in the thru-hull openings.

    He did not install a proper windshield (it gushed water inside when it rained).

    I could go on and on and on......

    He just slapped together a piece of **** for me, and I trusted him to do quality work. He bent me over and stuck it up my ***.

    I'm just stating the facts.

    If these were not the facts then I wouldn't still be working in the middle of no-where, trying to earn enough money to fix my less-than-2 year old boat.

    Sad, but brutally honest, and equally as true.

    Oh yeah........DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT LETTING HIM BUILD A RIG FOR YOU.........We're talking 10 times worse work/design/functionality as the hull.

    I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried guys.
     
  9. Manie B
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    Location: Cape Town South Africa

    Manie B Senior Member

    Hi guys

    i have been lurking for a while now
    i see this **** often = shoddy workmanship

    Been Robbed says

    for our general information and education

    please please please post some photos

    so that folks all over the world can see this kind of ****


    by posting pics you will be helping fellow boaters that are not as experienced as you and I to be aware of the many pit falls that faces buyers when they deal with "Boat Builders"

    keep up the pressure
    thanks guys
     
  10. BEEN.DONE.
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: thailand

    BEEN.DONE. Junior Member

    Sorry guys i wasn't aware of posting's etiquette.
    Absolutely no offence meant.
    I'm learning
    cheers
    been.done
     
  11. Been-Robbed
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Thailand

    Been-Robbed Junior Member

    Cat Pix

    Hi Been.Done,

    No idea what you were apologizing for. I've seen pictures of your wreck. Please post some here.

    Here is the laundry list of faults with my boat....a mere 11 months after it was launched by R&B Sailing. Will attempt to add some photos as well.

    ======================

    INSPECTION OF 42 FOOT CATAMARAN ISLAND BREEZE IN THE WATER, BOAT 11 MONTHS OLD...
    BOAT BUILDERS LOGO ON BOWS, MADE BY ***** **********, THAILAND.

    1. RUDDER POST LEAKING BOTH SIDES ( CREW SAID ALWAYS LEAKED ) BILGE
    PUMPS..... WHERE INSTALLED AS A FIX, THIS ALLOWS WATER DAMAGE TO
    PLYWOOD
    > CORE.
    ( CHECK HULL PLYWOOD FOR ROT AND REPLACE, RE-GLASS WITH EXTRA GLASS
    INSIDE AND OUTSIDE )

    2. CABIN WINDSCREEN LEAKS ( TOTAL WINDOW AREAS LEAK ) NEEDS HARDWOOD
    FRAME
    > SURROUND, WITH RECESS FOR ACRYLIC AND FOR SCREWS, ( ACRYLIC TO THIN-
    WEAK
    > REPLACE WITH HEAVY STRONG ACRYLIC ) WATER LEAKS HAVE DAMAGED INSIDE
    WOOD
    > COUNTERS AND BULKHEADS )
    >
    > 3. HULL BLISTERS APPROXIMATELY 50 OUTSIDE HULL BLISTERS ( EPOXY RATIO NOT
    > MIXED CORRECTLY AND FILLER NOT MIXED COMPLETELY )
    >
    > INSIDE BOAT FLOOR/SOLE BLISTERS:
    >
    > 3.2 MAIN CABIN FLOOR APPROX 20+ BLISTERS ( WATER BELOW FLOOR WITH NO
    DRAINS
    > OR ACCESS DOORS)
    >
    > 3.3 COCKPIT FLOOR APPROX 20+ BLISTERS ( WATER BELOW FLOOR WITH NO
    DRAINS OR
    > ACCESS DOORS)
    >
    > 3.4 BOTH LOWER HULLS FLOORS HAVE OVER 50+ BLISTERS EACH SIDE.( WATER
    FROM
    > UNSEALED TANKS BELOW FLOOR CAUSING BLISTERS, INSTALL PROPER FLOOR
    BOARDS
    > WITH
    > HATCHES, INSTALL PROPER WATER TIGHT TANKS )
    >
    > 4. HELM SEAT, HAS NO WATER DRAINAGE, VERY WOBBLY AND UNSAFE
    > ( NEED PROPER WATER PROOF SEAT WITH DRAINS.)
    >
    > 5. ANCHOR ROLLER DEFECT, PARTS ON UNDERSIDE ARE NOT STAINLESS, MILD
    STEEL
    > HAS
    > RUSTED COMPLETELY. ( REPLACE WITH STAINLESS )
    >
    > 6. MAIN CABIN DOOR AND INTERIOR CABIN DOORS HAVE HOUSEHOLD TYPE OF
    LOCKS
    > AND
    > LATCHES...SEIZED AND DO NOT WORK ( REPLACE WITH MARINE GRADE LATCHES
    AND
    > LOCKS
    > )
    >
    > 7. VARIOUS WIRING AND PLUMBING BORING'S/DRILLING'S MADE INTO WOOD HAVE
    NOT
    > BEEN EPOXIED OR PAINTED ( EPOXY AND PAINT TO PREVENT WOOD ROT )
    >
    > 8. HELM DASH BOARD IS NOT FITTED AND NOT TOTALLY EPOXIED, WIRE RUNS
    THROUGH
    > BORING'S NOT EPOXIED )
    >
    > 9. CABIN TOP HAS MISS DRILLED HOLES FILLED WITH SILICONE ( FILL WITH EPOXY
    > FILLER AND PAINT )
    >
    > 10. OUTBOARD MOTOR(s) LIFT SYSTEM... NO WORKING SYSTEM PROVIDED.
    OUTBOARD MOTORS IS SEA WATER FULL TIME
    >
    > 11. NO SEA COCKS BELOW WATER LINE, HOSES WITH ONLY SINGLE CLAMPS, SOME ( HOSES CONNECTED TO PLASTIC THROUGH HULL OPENINGS WITH NO WAY TO CLOSE )
    NOT
    > STAINLESS, HOSES ARE NOT MARINE GRADE. ( NEED TO INSTALL PROPER SEA
    COCKS,
    > MARINE GRADE HOSES WITH DOUBLE STAINLESS STEEL CLAMPS.
    >
    > 12. PLUMBING DONE WITH ELECTRICAL CONDUIT PIPE. CONNECTIONS WHERE MADE
    > SUBSTANDARD. ( NEEDS PROPER WATER PIPE AND HOSES THAT ARE NON-TOXIC
    AND
    > STAINLESS STEEL CLAMPS AND PROPER WATER FITTINGS )
    >
    > 13. MAIN SHEET TRAVELER TRACT IS TOO SMALL AND HAS BEEN DAMAGED
    BECAUSE IT
    > IS
    > TOO SMALL/ LIGHT WEIGHT. ( REPLACE WITH A TRACK SIZED FOR BOAT.)
    >
    > 14. FUEL VALVES ARE RUSTED TIGHT/MILD STEEL, NO AUXILIARY FUEL FILTERS
    > PROVIDED ( INSTALL MARINE GRADE VALVES AND FUEL FILTERS )
    >
    > 15. SHOWERS DRAIN INTO IMPROPER BILGE TANKS, NO SCREENS FOR DIRT. (
    INSTALL
    > FILTERS AND PROPER BILGE TANK )
    >
    > 16. COCKPIT AFT SEATING IS NOT FIBER AND NOT WEATHER PROOF ( REPLACE
    WITH
    > FIBER SEAT AND MAKE WEATHER TIGHT WITH RAIN GUTTERS.)
    >
    > 17. BOAT DECK HATCHES LEAK AND DO NOT HAVE LOCKS. ( INSTALL LARGER
    RUBBER
    > GASKETS AND ADD HATCH LOCKS )
    >
    > 18. STEERING NOT WORKING PROPERLY, AND EMERGENCY STEERING NOT
    WORKING (
    > NEEDS
    > BYPASS VALVE ) ( STEERING SYSTEM INSTALLED IS FOR A SMALL POWER BOAT....TAIWAN PRODUCT?)
    >
    > 19. HULL WATER LINE WRONG PLACE, BOOT STRIP WRONG PLACE, MOTOR
    NACELLE TOO
    > LONG. ( REMOVE AND RENEW WATER LINE AND BOOT STRIPE, SHORTEN NACELLE ) BOAT IS DOWN 8 INCHES IN THE STERN ( AFT SWIM STEP IS AWASH WITH WATER)
    >
    > 20. BATTERY COMPARTMENT NEEDS VENT ( NOT PROVIDED )
    >
    > 21. BATTERY FOR ANCHOR WINDLESS SYSTEM HAS NO WAY TO RECHARGE
    BATTERY. (
    > INSTALL BATTERY CHARGING METHOD )
    >
    > 22. FORE DECK PAINT ON LOCKERS DOES NOT MATCH BOAT ( REPAINT TO MATCH)
    >
    > 23. FEEDER WIRE TO BREAKER SWITCHES IS TOO SMALL OF GAGE, SWITCHES GET
    > DANGEROUSLY HOT. ( REPLACE WITH PROPER GAGE WIRE ) TOTAL BOAT NOT
    WIRED WITH
    > MARINE GRADE WIRE.
    >
    > 24. NO DRAINS FOR WATER IN SUB-FLOORS AND NO ACCESS. ( MAKE FLOOR BOARD
    > HATCHES FOR ACCESS TO ALL SUB-FLOORS.)
    >
    > 25. CEILINGS PANELS FALLING DOWN AND CEILING LIGHTS FALLING DOWN ( REPAIR
    > ATTACHMENTS )
    >
    > 26. NO ANCHOR RODES PROVIDED, SHORT CHAIN ONLY, NO 2nd SAFETY ANCHOR
    OR
    > RODE.
    > ( ADD PROPER ANCHOR RODE AND SAFETY ANCHOR WITH CHAIN AND RODE )
    >
    > 27. PLYWOOD HULL TESTED BY SHIPYARD WITH HULL CORE MOISTURE
    TESTING
    > MACHINE AND TEST SHOWED " WET MAXIMUM WATER IN CORE " ( THE PLYWOOD
    CORE
    > NEEDS
    > TO BE DRIED...HEAT LAMPS AND FANS, PROPER FLOOR BOARDS AND HATCHES TO
    ALL
    > FLOORS NEED TO BE INSTALLED TO MAINTAIN PROPER BOAT DRYNESS.)

    WOODEN MAST HAS WATER TRAPPED INSIDE NO DRAINS FOR WATER TO DRAIN AWAY....WATER SEEMS TO ENTER AT VARIOUS OPENINGS FOR WIRES AND HALYARDS. MAST HEAD LIGHTS ARE ( TWO BOAT SIDE LIGHTS WITH NO STEARN WHITE LITE PROVIDED. )

    MOSTLY/SOLID WOODEN MAST REMOVED FOR HAULING BOAT:
    TOP MAST SHEAVES ARE JAMMED...TOP STAINLESS MAST HEAD BOX HAS DROPPED AND CRUSHED SHEAVES, THIS STAINLESS BOX WEIGHTS ABOUT 60 LBS !! MAST HAS BEND FORWARD MID-WAY UP...TO FORM A "S" SHAPE VARIOUS EXTRA STAYS ADDED TO TRY AND CORRECT...DID NOT CORRECT. PAST CAPT. SAID RIG VERY DANGEROUS. THIS MAST WAS REMOVED...MAST WEIGHT IS ABOUT 1,700 POUNDS OR MORE !! NEED TO REPLACE WITH ALUMINUM MAST AND BOOM.

    DIGITAL PHOTO'S TAKEN OF ALL DEFECTS

    ======================

    Couldn't attach the photos here, so I posted them here....see http://rbtruth.blogspot.com/
     
  12. propshaft
    Joined: Aug 2008
    Posts: 52
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    Location: S.E.A.

    propshaft Junior Member

    Been-Robbed, how much did You pay for this cat?
    Is she a 40 footer?

    Also, do You also ask warranty for Chinese made ROLEX watch? :)
     
  13. Been-Robbed
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: Thailand

    Been-Robbed Junior Member

    My Original quote was for about 4.25 million Thai baht in 2005 (without rig....approx.$125K USD at that time).

    It sounded too good to be true, but with a 36 month warranty, I figured I would be OK and get the bugs worked out over that time period.

    I fail to see what a Rolex has to do with this discussion.
     
  14. sctpc
    Joined: Jul 2008
    Posts: 11
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 62
    Location: Melbourne

    sctpc Junior Member

    Been-Robbed

    I would say NO ONE who has had nothing to do with ***** has said you are "I could make this **** up I would be a novelist instead of an oil-field worker...." But would you be able to post some photos on hear. As Manie B says then we could all see his work with our own eyes.
     

  15. propshaft
    Joined: Aug 2008
    Posts: 52
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    Location: S.E.A.

    propshaft Junior Member

    So You have spent 1/3 of world market price for Your cat?
    And You still expect same level of equipment? Marine plywood? Marine hardware? Aluminum mast? How can You be so are naive, man??? Do You think RB is an altruist???
     
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