low cost cargo boat

[skaraborgcraft]

you save 1500mi of fuel.

1500 miles of fuel in US prices is peanuts compared to most places around the world. How much boat does that figure buy?

Even a small tug towing 4 dumb-lighters with containers is going to burn more fuel.

 

[Rumars]

From what I gather the goal is to pick up the grain in Prince Rupert and sail it to Valdez then truck it to the interior instead of getting it in Alberta and taking the Alcan. There is still 300mi of road travel and 800ish mi of sailing but you save 1800mi of trucking, and in a perfect world (which the inside passage/north pacific is not) you save 1500mi of fuel. All fine and good, but then you have to sail the boat back and unless you can find a high value cargo to bring back to pay for your time you get to double the costs. None of this is for hire, and it would be a personal boat transporting personal goods so there might be a lot sell red tape to get through.

Freight cost is very roughly $2-4 usd per mile so max savings would be about $6000, Cruisers estimate about a month for the trip for sailing. So 12-18k max a year if you are lucky. Last I checked Alaska doesn't produce much rum, very little coffee and tea, and practically no chocolate so return cargo might be an issue.

Let's run some numbers:
1800mi x 4$/mi x 4 containers = 28 800$ This sum is the max. potential saving per trip for the grain run. To this we add the potential gains from the return run, say lumber, another max. 28 800. So in theory we have 57 600$ to play with on a round trip, but since we're competing with trucking it could be as low as 28 800$. From this we need to pay insurance, a minimum of 4 crew, port fees, handling fees, crago storage, some fuel, general ship upkeep, and amortization. Even under the best conditions like owning a dock and storage at one end, using a small fishing harbor at the other, hiring foreign labor, etc. it will be a hard sell. Let's take amortization, if the round trip takes a month one can do an average of 4 trips/year at a good payrate and you somehow manage to put 10% towards amortization it would take 30-40 years to pay for a boat costing one million.

One observation about the vessel in question, beeing able to load four actual containers is the wrong way to go. A 40ft container loaded with grain is half empty because of the road regulations, the cargo space needed for 100t of grain (what four containers would typically hold) is about 130 cubic meters (depending on grain moisture). The correct strategy is to use FIBC's (big bags) as packaging and shape the cargo hold according to the chosen size. Loading via onboard crane on the sail boom.
Cheapest vessel for this would be a monohull schooner, ~100ft on deck, with around 500 sqm of sail.

 

[BMP]

Rumars,
Spot on.
I was thinking that something like this: Vermont Sail Freight Project for the boat only closer to 50-60ft and sprit rigged which should make it easier to handle short handed. It would not take 4 containers worth but might handle 1-2 ish. then using the sprit as a crane and those plastic fabric grain totes (~1 ton each) building watertight bulkheads to take two totes in each. It pains me to say it but it still seems like a high efficiency truck might be a better solution since you need that anyway for the last 300mi. But the dream of the return of sail is so tantilizing.

..."clear a away the track let the bull 'gin run...."

​

 

[Rumars]

The above calculation was to break even with the trucks, not save or make money. It is what we call over here a "work creating measure", that's redirecting money to create jobs in a community regardless of existing alternatives. In order to actually save some money you would have to operate on a lower budget and have a higher amortization rate so you can actually do it in the 20 years of useful economic life.

Returning to vessel design and regardless of economic operarion realities, I don't consider a Thames Barge to be a good inspiration. The rig isn't suited to rough water conditions, a fact that was recognized even back in the day, the open water barges were gaff rigged ketches. The standing sprit is just to heavy and dangerous, this outweighed all its other benefits wich were not that important in open water anyway. It's a similar tale with the hull, the open water barges had finer lines with clipper bows. The shallow draft isn't a requirement for Alaska sailing, there's no need for leeboards.
I think a designer can go several ways, a wider shallower 3:1 hull with a full transom and a moderate fin keel (see for example Grain de Sail 1) or a long and deep traditional full keel schooner type (5:1), or anywhere in between.
Building materials are another interesting challenge. Alaska has plenty of cheap lumber and a composite AYC hull would have no problem to achieve the working lifespan. But, building with wood is labor intensive, and steel, aluminium or monolithic fiberglass could be cheaper overall.
There are also some other considerations like the danger of floating logs and possibly ice, so maybe a wooden or fiberglass hull isn't the optimum.
The rig presents its own challenges. A modern high strung bermuda is expensive. A more traditional gaff can be had cheaper, but is more labor intensive, especially with topsails. Then there are more exotic options like junk, staysail schooner or brigantine.

 

[skaraborgcraft]

This guy is up that way I think. Single handed build from what i recall.

 

[ondarvr]

Every port from Seattle to AK is littered with old "great ideas" for a vessel like this. You can buy a ferry or barge, or be given one just for moving it someplace else.

I typically look at these things differently than most people on this forum. At 70 I've lived most of my life on the water, meaning waterfront property, lakes, rivers and salt water, including islands. To me boats are tools that require labor and money to maintain and use, there is no romanticized view of being on the water or boating.

So in an instance like this it would need to save a large amount of money quickly and with relatively low effort for me to consider it. The idea of using a sail is only an option if it saves money and is somewhat hassle free, if it isn't it's not considered.

To me calling a trucking and or barge company and it having it picked up tomorrow and then it is their problem until delivered to my desired destination is quick, easy, and most likely cheaper, or at best, the same cost. That results in several years of aggravation, hassle, huge $$$ expenditures, then in use liabilities completely avoided. Then add in the time required sailing this contraption from port to port, maintenance, docking fees for the part of the year you can't use it, then its demise to storms and rust, insurance, etc, why would I even consider it.

I could probably spend a couple of years in a tropical zone, island hopping during that time and spend less money, have a great time, and be better off due to no law suits from this derelict vessel being anchored, tied to a dock, or sunk in a harbor, and needing to be moved on my dime.

 

[gonzo]

I was thinking that something like this: Vermont Sail Freight Project for the boat only closer to 50-60ft and sprit rigged which should make it easier to handle short handed.

A 60 foot boat will not have the same cargo volume as a container. There has to be volume left for crew, machinery, buoyancy, etc. Also, sprit rigs are not very good for rough weather in cold waters. The sprits a re a bear to handle since they are about 1.5 times longer than the masts. Another main problem with a small vessel is the lack of reliability on the deliveries due to weather. The cost of freight increases in bad weather because the operating costs are the same per day. The crew gets paid, maintenance is the same or more, docking fees, etc. Further, the seasonal window of operation is shorter. Are the crews hired for temporary work? In that case you would have to find sailors available seasonally, which was common in the 1800s and before. Nowadays, working sailors are rare.

 

[gonzo]

To me calling a trucking and or barge company and it having it picked up tomorrow and then it is their problem until delivered to my desired destination is quick, easy, and most likely cheaper, or at best, the same cost.

You will need a trucking company anyways unless the manufacturing and final destination are at ports.

 

[rob denney]

But it got me thinking if one was looking to transport some cargo by sail on a shoe string budget how would you go about it?

I'm in Fiji where the problem is not only cost, but having to cross ~100m of coral flat to get to the beach.

During Covid a mate and I built a 24m/80' cargo proa to service remote maritime communities, delivering small-medium quantities of goods back and forth at regular intervals. Took us 2 years of 40 hour weeks to build the boat and a 28' tender. About half the time was spent talking, testing and breaking stuff.

The long hull is box section 800mm x 800mm. The 12m short hull has 2 bunks, galley and nav space. The entire boat is built from knitted glass flat panels (no core) infused on a table andf painted with water based house paint. The low panel stiffness was solved with bulkheads at 800mm centres. The chines and gunwhales are male/female joins included in the infusion. Squirt glue in the female, push them together and wipe off the squeeze out. No jig or building frame required. Materials cost 6 years ago was ~$Aus30,000/$US20,000.

I brought it to Fiji for assembly and testing. Took a while as we had to build a shed and boat ramp. I spent the time talking to villagers and experimenting. The original plan was conventional sails on unstayed masts, the same as on Harryproas. The cost of the sails and gear required caused us to look at reefable wing sails, which I built and tested. Lower cost, lower loads and easily built, but complicated to use.

I had been playing with kites on boats for 20+ years, but found the launch and retrieval (especially when they fall in the tide) issues overcame the benefits (no heeling, more wind up high). Another mate came up with a solution which flew the kites on short lines, using a lightweight mast to deploy and retrieve the kite. He also switched to paragliders, which are larger and available second hand for much less than a kite. A huge benefit is that they are self trimming from hard on the wind to a broad reach. Two people can handle the boat on 1-2 day voyages.

The gliders meant the boat could be half as wide and the 150 kg masts replaced with 20 kg versions. The final result weighed <1.5 tonnes when launched (floated clear sitting on 7 empty 200l/40 gal drums), has since had 2 kw of solar panels, 6 kw electric motor, 8 kw hr battery, anchors, etc added, now weighs about 2 tons/tonnes, draws about 50mm/2".

Freight is carried in boxes on the long hull deck. Sail across the reef just before high tide, unload the village's box(es), load their exports and sail back across the reef. Or put a couple of tyres under the boat and sit on the coral flat (dead coral in the process of being ground into sand).

1,000 hours of labour here is about $US3,000. Overheads are low. Materials have gone up a bit, shipping costs have gone up a lot. Depending on the survey requirements, and assuming a production line approach, a boat capable of carrying up to 2 tons of cargo offshore, or 10 tons in sheltered water could be built for less than $US40,000. This compares with the latest interisland ship, an almost derelict ex ferry which cost $US2 million and caught fire on an early trip. 50 cargo proas, which don't rot or rust, can be built locally by semi skilled labour and cleaned by a couple of kids in knee deep water. They would enable regular visits to many villages rather than an occasional ship requiring a large jetty and deep water. And biannual dry docking 1,500 miles away.

The video shows the maiden voyage, the attached photo is the control panel of the 6kw electric motor. The story of the build is here.