Looking for the right path to design and build

Discussion in 'Education' started by ben_morel, Oct 4, 2005.

  1. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    I got as usual a qiuck answer from Tom MacNaughton.
    I suppose it's OK that I paste a part of his answer:

    "Despite a great deal of hard work on Mr. Gerr's part, which is admirable,
    we cannot endorse a book which so heavily contradicts conventional
    engineering science and the principles of structural analysis. Without
    suggesting in any way that our own writings are without flaw, we would like
    to see this book withdrawn from the market until it can be brought into
    conformance with conventional engineering practice."
     
  2. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I have compared Gerrs scantling rules for steel vessels in the 50 foot range with other scantling rules and found his to be more than adequate being equal to that required by commercial vessels in survey. For other construction I cannot comment.
     
  3. chandler
    Joined: Mar 2004
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    Location: U.s. Maine

    chandler Senior Member

    Raggi
    It appears as though neither gerr nor mcnaughton are engineers. They both call themselves naval architects. Gerr from westlawn, mcnaughton from Ted Brewer, however I don't believe either has a university degree in "naval architecture" such as offered by say MIT or Michigan.
    So if we are studying YDS's curriculum, when we finish, can we actually call ourselves "naval architects", or would the term designer be more appropriate?
    In the U.S., an architect is licensed, however anyone can call themselves a designer.
    I guess what I'm getting at is, are either of them qualified to publish what is essentially an engineering text book?
    So anyway, how's the course going? I'm going to get back into it shortly as I have a design in the works and it will probably be cheaper to finish the course and get the benefit of Tom's critique than pay an architect. Besides I don't really care about the degree,I just find the topic interesting
    Chandler
     
  4. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Location: Trondheim, NORWAY

    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    Chandler, scantlings for pleasure boats can be a problem if you want to use rules from ABS, DNV etc. Wooden boats built to DNV's rules will be very heavy, useful for a 40 feet fishing boat of traditional construction, but not for a modern strip planked sailing yacht.
    In the US I think you can do a test to become a licensed nav. arch?
    I am still to busy to do much with course :-(
     
  5. CDBarry
    Joined: Nov 2002
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    CDBarry Senior Member

    In most US states, strictly speaking, a P.E. license is required to offer engineering services to the public. Most states license all engineers as "engineers" and not in specific disciplines (just like lawyers and doctors, for example - they don't license pediatricians separately from internists). These states allow as part of the whole process, taking a "Principles and Practice" examination specific to Naval Architecture/Marine Engineering. Though these states do not restrict disciplines, engineers are not supposed to practice outside of their expertise (even within a discipline), and there are severe penalties for doing so.

    A few states (CA, OR, WA, RI, that I know of) have specific disciplines and in these you have to take the specific exam in that discipline, and the license is distinguished by discipline. As far as I know, only WA and OR have a specific NAME discipline (and have for many decades).

    As to calling yourself a naval architect, this could be (and has been) held as one means of offering engineering services to the public, and could be controlled. Calling yourself a yacht designer is not generally controlled, since this is drafting services, not engineering. provided you don't describe the work as engineering otherwise.

    It is also unlawful to practice engineering, with numerous exemptions, without a license, regardless of how it is described. However, in general US laws have as their basis "public safety", so in general, practice of yacht design is not controlled, as it only involves private parties, not "innocent" public third parties (that is third parties to the designer/builder/owner contract).

    This is fairly complicated area of the law and getting more so. Maine recently passed a law that "working on boats under 200 feet" was exempt, but this may not mean offers are uncontrolled, nor does it define "working" as including "...performing engineering calculations and analyses to validate compliance with legal standards to protect public safety...", which is what "engineering" is under the law. This may also change in view of the Ethan Allen accident. This is precisely the sort of event that licensure is supposed to prevent.

    As to Westlawn and YDS, they are not ABET recognized, nor are they equivalent under the law, so neither would count in applying for a P.E., noting that some states do not require a degree for licensure. Thus the term yacht designer would be appropriate unless licensed or otherwise qualified as a real naval architect.

    As far as writing a book, anyone can do so, whether it is about engineering or ancient astronauts. It doesn't have to be right, and the individual doesn't have to be qualified in any way.

    Go to www.ncees.org and www.nspe.org for more information.
     
  6. chandler
    Joined: Mar 2004
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    chandler Senior Member

    Thanks for the response raggi and cd barry.
    So cd, while on the subject,from your bio I assume you have a degree in Naval Architecture. What do you think of westlawn or mcnaughton? I'm not talking about becoming a naval architect, more as a design tool or instruction.
     
  7. CDBarry
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    CDBarry Senior Member

    As a more convenient alternative, possibly more appropriate for your purposes and background, I would suggest that you educate yourself by reading, and find a mentor who is an experienced naval architect to help you and guide you. Here I would suggest someone who is not currently in the small craft industry (retired and/or in the military, commercial, or academic side), so it would be a hobby for them as well. In this regard, go to a local SNAME meeting, contact the Sailing Yacht panel of SNAME (see posts) and go to the CSYS.
     
  8. chandler
    Joined: Mar 2004
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    chandler Senior Member

    Thanks CDBarry, actually I live about 15 minutes from the landing school, you suppose thier design program would be interested in critiquing?
    Unfortunately I don't have the time or the money to actually enroll there.
     
  9. CDBarry
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    CDBarry Senior Member

    You might be able to find a (or group of) student to work with at the Landing School, perhaps even with the School's support.

    I would think that actually working with a real client might be a very good exercise for the students.

    However, I have no real contacts there. On the other hand, if you are serious about working with someone in general, I can ask around for someone who is looking for some hobby work.
     
  10. bobothehobo
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Newport

    bobothehobo Junior Member

    Chandler, I am currently a student in the Design Program at The Landing School.
    If you would like to discuss anything about the program or a project you are working on send me a PM.

    Cheers,
    BC
     
  11. D'ARTOIS
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: The Netherlands

    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    I believe that Mike and CD Barry gave you the most feasible answers, although - every member tried to give you their best advise.

    At least, you did not approach us in the usual way "Hello, I want to build a 25 meter yacht, please tell me how to do it."

    I have a degree in egineering, but only practised it when I came back from Africa, totally broke. (Long time ago) In Europe, there are no such institutions like Westlawn and to learn to design AND BUILD a yacht, you have to do it by yourself or you have to find a job on a shipyard or designer's office.

    First of all, yacht design is a matter of art, material knowledge, basic engineering and a lot of enthousiasm.

    As everybody says, books do a lot. As being an engineer you understand math as well as you know how to work in AC, well if you know that already the rest will not be that difficult. The hull is engineered in programs like Max Surf or similar programs, there are many and it is a matter of preference which one you finally will take.
    Look into an engineering program and not in a modellin program: Rhino is a modelling program but won't give you engineering solutions.

    Furthermore: there is a distinctive difference between theory and practice.
    My friend Mike and Wynand will agree with that. Both know boatbuilding also from the practical side, like also CD Barry and Raggi Thor.

    Be practical if you require to build only one boat for yourself, not being a Naval Architect.
    If you want to be a Naval Architect, you must also learn to calculate fast moving surface craft, and not only sailboats but also commercial vessels and I am sure that is not what you want.

    Keep focussed on your target. Check with designers that produce the boat you like successfully. Talk as much as possible with professional people and try to see what they are doing on the yard.
    Start to focus on your boat, building material, environment, autonomy etc.
    Use that as a basis and build your technology around. I had the opportunity to look into the best yards Holland posesses. To see their production process, to talk with the management and to learn from their decisions.

    Remind that there always two sides - what you learn in theory and what is practice.

    You have to see the workfloor; you have to see how yachts are made in the different materials available, but I believe you will succeed!
     
  12. chandler
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    chandler Senior Member

    Thank you all for the encouragement, just finished my second lofting floor, first one too flimsy,( and I build homes for a living!). I will succeed!
    Thanks
    Chandler
     
  13. chandler
    Joined: Mar 2004
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    Location: U.s. Maine

    chandler Senior Member

    Oh!
    By the way to all those in the US, Happy Thanksgiving! To all those abroad, Happy Holidays!
     
  14. ben_morel
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    Location: Canada

    ben_morel Dreamer

    Decision is taken

    Hi all,
    Thanks for all your responses.
    I am going to register to Westlawn.
    I talked with instructor and exchanged several e-mails.
    I have a very good feeling that it will help me in the project.

    I'll keep you updated on how it goes.
    Ben
     

  15. Willallison
    Joined: Oct 2001
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    Location: Australia

    Willallison Senior Member

    Best of luck with it Ben - make sure you keep us posted....
    and I think you'll find (as I have) that everyone who participates here are very generous when it comes to helping out, whether they are fans of Westlawn or not. I certainly couldn't have made it to the end of the course without them all:p
     
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