looking for info on this boat

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by TwoBirds, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. TwoBirds
    Joined: Aug 2016
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    TwoBirds Junior Member

    Hi

    Ran across this one pic and couldn't find any more info on the boat, hoping someone can point me in the right direction, anything, pics, plans, build log, even a name would be good.

    [​IMG]

    2b
     
  2. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    rwatson Senior Member

    An awkward looking beast. I would be surprised if it was designed by a professional N/A
     
  3. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    It's the 24' Pacific Proa from Team Pure & Wild in the 2015 R2AK (Race to Alaska).​



     
  4. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

  5. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Belgium ⇄ The Netherlands

    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    John Harris of CLC (Chesapeake Light Craft) offers Plans, and also CNC cut Kits, for what to me looks like a very nice 30' 8" Pacific Proa.


    [​IMG]

    ‘‘ . . . . . Madness was inspired by, and designed in direct consultation with, proa guru Russell Brown. The design is a fusion of Brown's 30-foot plywood Jzero design from the 1970’s, his more-refined cold molded 36-footer Jzerro, from 1993, and with the proa Mbuli, which John C. Harris designed and built in 2000.

    More design discussion, construction photos, and commentary were posted on our blog, here 1, here 2, here 3, here 4, and finally on the water here 5. A wrap-up of the whole project is here 6. . . . . . . . tacking procedure here 7 . . . . . . . .
    ’’



     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  6. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    CT249 likes this.
  7. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    CT249 Senior Member

    I remember looking at it and thinking that it didn't seem to have much more RM than something like a Tornado with crew trapping, and a very big rig. It's a case of hubris where they diss "old school sailing" in one of their vids. And of course, the Pacific proa is hardly a new concept. But given the outstanding minds behind the project, it does seem odd that it apparently miscarried.
     
  8. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Yeah, the guy who built it ( an experienced boat designer) did so with "input" from a well known Proa enthusiast. No wonder they are using a Trimaran for the next attempt. The whole configuration of the proa was really useless.
     
  9. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Thanks for the link in post #4 Ray, I'll quote the part about the subject Proa here, so it stays with the thread . . .
     
  10. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    I think we've seen the same thing Rob, but yet draw different conclusions from it, since my first thought wasn't that a reputed design team as Paul Bieker and Russell Brown would be anything off with the righting moment.

    Quote from the article: - ‘‘ . . . tremendous righting moment of the ama with water ballast . . . ’’

    From the above shown #2 video, with both crew members on the ama (= always to windward since this is a Pacific Proa), I assumed there was no water ballast in the ama yet, so not trimmed for the conditions there, since the text in the video says from 0:00 to 0:02 ‘‘first day on the water’’ and from 0:32 to 0:34 ‘‘there's still loads to do....’’

    From 0:12 to 0:15, when the lee pod is in the water and at first there's not a single crew member on the ama, my thought wasn't ‘‘too little righting moment’’, but I thought, they're testing lee pod buoyancy there with no water ballast in the ama, since one of the functions of the lee pod is to provide the needed buoyancy to resist to roll further as shown there, and then when one guy climbs up to the ama, he very easily and quickly rights the boat.

    Do you have any info, other than the at first glance quickly jumped into conclusions from only 52 sec of footage in a very first test video, that made you conclude that the boat has insufficient righting moment ?

    In the above shown #3 video I see only one guy on the ama and much less ama lifting, which could be further reduced by the intake of more water ballast I think. But then this is a race boat, on which anything that can be balanced by crew weight, and so using less water ballast to keep the boat upright, makes the boat lighter and faster. So for max speed you'll need a continuing trim of the amount of water ballast to keep the ama just fee of the water with both crew members on the ama.
    All I know about this particular boat is what is posted on this thread so far, so I don't know why they pulled out of the race, and if this was due to a boat failure and/or a design fault, or maybe something else ? As long as I don't know why they pulled out, I can't draw specific conclusions from this fact. Do you have any info, as to why they pulled out of the race, to draw conclusions from for this boat ?
    I don't know either, but she could well be in Bermuda where Paul Bieker uses her for recreation while working there, since this was the plan for her future in the linked article.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  11. TwoBirds
    Joined: Aug 2016
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    TwoBirds Junior Member

    You Folks Rock :)

    Thanks everybody, I spent some time googling and couldn't find anything other than the one pic, Hats off to your mad googling skills :)

    Madness looks like a lot of fun, I can see how the idea of a proa could get the old creative juices flowing.
    I'm just starting on a Wa'apa outrigger canoe from Gary Dierkings book, the Wa'apa can be built in 8 foot sections that bolt together so I can build it in my spare bedroom for about what it'd cost to heat my shop over the winter, and I'm looking for ideas to put a small hard cabin in the center section.

    Thanks everyone

    2b
     
  12. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Correct.
    I've just checked that, it's a 100% new team which has nothing to do with the 2015 team.

    Only the main sponsor stayed the same, hence the same team name.

    Among the designers, workers, builders, sailors, and financiers of the 2015 team was agreed in advance that the 2015 team kept the 2015 boat which should go to Paul Bieker.

    So the new team had to choose their own boat type, no matter what, because they could not possibly have the 2015 boat anyway, and the new team also wanted a boat for 3 crew members to get more rest for each of them, as like in 2015 they needed two of them working most of the time to get max results, that's what they learned from the 2015 participation !
    Based on what Ray ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  13. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Just found an account of the 2015 Team Pure & Wild of why they pulled out of the race...
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  14. Angélique
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Please start a build thread about it, and post a link to the new thread here, so I won't miss it . . . :)

    Wish you godspeed with the new project ! :cool:
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Besides the points below, (which were acknowledged in their comments), the whole idea of a small, cramped open boat for work in for that climate is a crazy decision. The illusion of plenty of room on the trampoline ignores the reality of freezing water and spray for anyone trying to work there. Since they had to sit out on the Ama to balance the rig, it was a "fine weather" boat only.
    On top of that, they used a high aspect rig, to make the job so much harder trying to keep it upright.

    1) The boat was simply not big enough for three
    24 feet can be a big enough boat, but because this layout of this proa, it pushes all the crew out onto a skinny, wet and uncomfortable platform only 6 inches above the water. Access to the two bows for daggerboard/rudder access is wet and slippery, and very fraught because of lack of room and safety rails.

    2) the boat demanded the near full time attention of both crew in anything over 6 knots
    Code for difficult to steer and optimize sail shape AND Position, due to using the high aspect traditional Bermudan rig with big spreaders (which is never great for a Proa that has to go backwards) makes for a lot of work. They could only raise the jib in one direction by the look of it, which has to reduce pointing ability and speed.

    3) There is no question that shunting is not for everyone and impacts your tactical decisions particularly in short course or close quarter tactical situations,
    Code for trying to race competitively with a high manual input rig setup, and the associated awkward gear, is non-competitive. Racing across ten feet of floppy trampoline from the sailing position is really tiring.
     
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