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Canoe Mold

Discussion in 'Boat Molds' started by amery1836, May 18, 2008.

  1. amery1836
    Joined: May 2008
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    amery1836 Junior Member

    I came up with a new canoe design and constructed 2 cedar strip proto types. I would like to start constructing them for graphite or kevlar from a mold. Knowing my cedar strips aren't perfect for a plug. Is their someone around Minnesota or Wisconsin that could produce a cnc mold. And how much might that set me back. Thanks
     
  2. duluthboats
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    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

  3. amery1836
    Joined: May 2008
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    amery1836 Junior Member

    You're correct. Is that the best way to do this or is there a better way. Is there a good book on the process, or anyone in the St.Paul area that can help me get this done correctly. Bell had relocated from Prinstin or Zimmerman Minnesota to LaCrosse Wisconsin. Did they leave anyone behind that would be willing to work with me on this? I want to produce a high quality canoe which is somewhat different not currently on the market. Thanks
     
  4. the1much
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    the1much hippie dreams

    why not make a mold of your canoe, and then "perfect" the mold,,its really not hard,,once you make your mold,,,you can fair the mold.
     
  5. duluthboats
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    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

  6. amery1836
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    amery1836 Junior Member

    Thanks for your info. I'll try the contacts you mentioned. I wish I knew one of Ted Bell's former employee's. I want this project done right. I am sure I could make the mold myself but would feel better working with someone who has done this before. Rather not learn from my own mistakes.
     
  7. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SamSam Senior Member

    A long time ago I read about some guy who was known for canoe design and had come up with numerous designs that were being made commercially by the big manufacturers. His process was to slap together his ideas in woodstrip as fast as possible, sometimes in a day or less, throw it in the water and try it, pull it out and make modifications, try it again, etc. When he got what he wanted, he faired and finished the woodstrip into a plug and sold it to whoever bought it. The companies made the molds etc.

    It is much easier to fair the plug than it is to fair the mold. As in mucho grande. Your woodstrip canoes are an excellent start on a plug, providing they are symmetrical on port and starboard. If they are too far off, the canoe will want to turn one way or the other by itself. It would be no easier to cover and then fair a styrofoam cnc plug (Do they even make a cnc mold? From what I can tell ...
    http://www.pilot3d.com/5axis.htm
    ... you mill a foam block into a shape and then cover that with glass and fair it to make a plug for a mold.) than it would be to fair the canoes you already have. Fairing is not rocket science or something that takes a lifetime to learn. Neither is moldmaking. There is a lot of info around about the processes, fairing plugs is very similar to doing auto bodywork. That's the good part.

    The bad part is there is an awful lot, again as in mucho grande, competition in what you want to do. If you wait around for someone else to do stuff, you won't have anything to sell this canoe season, and nobody will buy them out of season, and people won't buy them in season if they don't have word of mouth or a brandname to back them up. I made a mold and built them for awhile. I lived near La Crosse and started by getting supplies from We-no-nah canoe a few gallons at a time. Years before I had gone with a friend to where Chickanowski (We-no-nah founder) made them, before it become a Business. It was some ones garage, and the guy was possessed. He lived, ate and literally breathed canoes. He was on the ground floor and a major driver of the rejuvenation of canoing as a sport, and if he wasn't cranking out new designs and plugs and molds as fast as he could, he was traveling all over the US racing, selling, promoting. There are now legions of similar people in his company, and lots of companies just like his.

    If you are just going to do it as a hobby and sell some to break even, you might cover the cost of materials and a little more. In hobbies, time usually isn't counted. If it's to make a living wage, it will take many years to possibly become self supporting, in the meantime taking big (to me at least) amounts of investment in time, money, facilities, and require big amounts of pure business savvy to deal with the regulations pertaining to employees, environmental restrictions, taxes, finances and just generally everything needed to be successful. When you get big enough to buy materials by multiple semi and tanker loads, you will become competitive in material costs. When you get enough qualified, knowledgeable employees and the tooling and facilities to accommodate them you will become competitive in that regard. When you acquire enough money to float you through years of a bad or mediocre economy and years of no slim or no profit, remember, boats are the first to go and the last to come back when the economy tanks, well, then you might have it made. Hopefully you won't get sued, as you are legally responsible for any and all boats you make until the end of their life (or yours) and liability insurance is out of the question moneywise, which is allright as it probably isn't available anyways. Right from the start, the need for the ability to successfully build canoes is almost secondary to the need for the ability to be able to sell them.

    Other than that, it's a piece of cake. ;o) I'm being pessimistic for a reason. You can easily drop many thousands of dollars into one of these endeavors and it will also take a toll on your personal life, especially if there are a wife and kiddies involved or you borrow from family and friends. But if you do all the research and still think it's a viable idea, well, good luck and all the power to you. Whatever I have said will just be a teeny weeny blip in the issues you will encounter.
     
  8. amery1836
    Joined: May 2008
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    amery1836 Junior Member

    Thanks for the response Sam. Ok I can't give up on the Ideal I have. I First went to Bending Branches mfg.of high end paddles. They thought it has great promise, but not realy what their into, So they thought Bell or We-no-nah. Bell said they were too new of a company after relocating to take it on. We-no-nah was too busy staying focused on their market. They thought maybe best as a kit. Not what I picture. I really Thought it could of been produced and marketed by Bell. I realize that Marketing is going to be one of the biggest challenges. If I can't find a boat or canoe company to work with , I will build them myself. Nothing been easy for me why should this be any different :] lol
     
  9. amery1836
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    amery1836 Junior Member

    What is a good reference for finishing the plug and making the mold. Is there someone in western Wisconsin that could give me a hand?
     
  10. Eagle Boats
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Eagle Boats Senior Member

    Amery, there are a fair amount of books that will take you through the process of building the plug, mold and part. I checked out Amazon.com and they had many books available.

    The most difficult part of the process is building the plug. You are well ahead of the game because of your experience building strip canoes. In essence, that can be your plug. The key to building a quality product starts with the plug. You must ensure that the plug is about as perfect as possible, which will mean a considerable amount of elbow grease. Get the wood strips faired as best as you can, cover it with a layer of 10 ounce fiberglass cloth saturated with polyester resin. If there are any areas that require filling, you can actually use Bondo. You will then spray the whole plug with a sandable primer. I use a product called Duratec sanding primer. Its not cheap, and you may need to use a large quantity to get everything perfect. You can buff this up and get a very good finish. Once you are satisfied with the finish, you are ready to make a mold. The plug needs to be waxed many times before you do anything else. This is done so that the mold will come off the plug without any problems. I also will put a very, very thin coating of PVA, polyvinyl alcohol, on the plug. Now you are ready to make the mold. You will first spray tooling gel coat on the plug. Once the gel coat has cured, you will apply a layer of 3/4 ounce chopped strand mat. This needs to be done very carefully and you want to make sure that all air bubbles have been eliminated. This layer is called the skin coat. I will let this layer cure, and will then start adding layers of 2 ounce chopped strand mat. I will add enough layers of mat to bring the thickness of the mold to approximately 5/8 of an inch. After the glass has cured, you will need to reinforce it so that there will be no flexing of the mold. I typically use "black" pipe which you can get at Home Depot. The pipe or whatever you use to reinforce the mold should never come into direct contact with the mold. You should use a woven roving or a biaxial fiberglass to secure the reinforcing materials to the mold. Any direct contact can cause a hardspot in the mold, and can get transmitted to the finished product. Once the mold is complete, it is time to remove it from the plug. You will be amazed as to how difficult that can be due to the vacuum effect. Once the mold has been removed, I will wetsand the mold to get rid of the imperfections caused by the PVA. I will then buff it, and apply a sealer glaze. There is a company called TR Industries that makes a variety of products including waxes and glazes. Once the mold is complete, you can begin making parts. The mold will need to be waxed many times, and you should also spray a coating of PVA for the first few parts. This will ensure that the mold is broken in properly. As with making the mold, you will first spray a layer of gel coat. Once cured, you will then lay a 3/4 ounce layer of chopped mat. You will then apply additional glass, but as I have never built a canoe, I have no idea as to what the layup schedule should be.
    The whole process from start to finish is not rocket science, but does take a fair amount of common sense and hard work. If I can do it, so can you. In addition to building boats, I am a Certified Public Accountant. I build boats to regain the sanity that I lose from pushing a pencil, contending with the IRS and SEC, and dealing with nutty clients.
    Best of luck to you. Feel free to ask any questions.
     
  11. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Amery,how good/bad are your prototypes? they may be good enough to serve as plugs if you do a lot of fairing,but remember,every hull you pull from the mold is only as good as the plug the mold was made from.I can probably be of help in some capacity.I started,owned and operated (and sold) a successfull fiberglass laminating business years ago and in the process built more than 1000 small boats among other products. Im in ne minnesota.if you are interested pm me.
    Steve.
     
  12. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SamSam Senior Member

    When I learned was in the early 80s and there was no internet, so that's a huge improvement. A lot of companies on the net that sell resins, etc also give good free information on making plugs and molds. When I saw the delivery truck in Wenonah's parking lot, I quit buying from them and went to their supplier, Fiberglass Supply (I think) in LaCrosse. One of the salesmen was very helpful, giving me info on how it's done and how to do it, giving me factory discounts on small purchases, overlooking charging me for 5 gallon buckets and telling me of places they supplied where I might be able to go to ask advice, a great big help. But salesmen come and go, the next guy wasn't so helpful. You might ask Bell or Wenonah if they could give you a little tour and ask some questions, W. did for me. The University in Madison also had a boat building program so I drove over there to seek advice. The guy was not much help, alcohol and styrene tend to make people short on patience, but the U's bookstore had a few invaluable books. Here's one I got and still use..... https://www.boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12-435

    As Steve and Eagle say, the finished product is only as good as the plug. Perfectionism and attention to detail is a good thing. A lot of fairing the plug comes down to longboarding, in fact fairing the plug is essentially the same as fairing a boat before painting and there's a lot of info on the net about that. My plug was basically a rough, 10 oz glass covered woodstrip, faired/sanded with bondo about 5-6 times, sprayed with hi build auto primer, faired/sanded, sprayed with auto enamel (Napa), waxed, pva'd and laminated. With the Bondo or whatever filler you use, one thing to do is be sure to fair/sand off all that is not needed. You are filling the low spots and any thin layers left on the high spots keep adding up and change the overall shape. Keep changing the color of each application so you can tell what areas you are working on and which need work. Have lots of lights, some movable, and continually sight down the finish to see wavy areas. You need smooth curve and line reflections the whole length of the canoe.
     
  13. amery1836
    Joined: May 2008
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    amery1836 Junior Member

    Thanks for all the information. My cedar strip canoe is in pretty good shape. (hate to cover over my nice woodstrips) It does have a layer of 6 oz glass with epoxy resin. You mentioned 10 oz above will it matter? I'll get to work fairing this out. Thanks again
     
  14. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SamSam Senior Member

    No, it doesn't matter. Anything can serve as the base for a plug as long as it will remain stable and be able to be sealed to prevent the molds gelcoat from sticking. Basically anything that can be painted and waxed.

    I never used epoxy and don't know if you have to use special fillers and such. Pretty much anything will stick to unwaxed polyester, but a lot of things won't stick to epoxy. Either way, if your canoe is covered in waxed epoxy, you have to remove the wax by sanding or stripping to allow the filler to stick.

    You could always quickly build another, leave it on the forms and glass and fair it and make the mold. That would give you a real stable plug to work on, and also allow you to get out and beat the bushes with your finished canoe in the meantime, drumming up interest or sales. After the mold was removed, the plug could be finished as another woodstrip canoe. If you did that, mounting the forms on a ply covered platform a foot wider and longer than the plug would give you a reference point for measuring or attaching hold downs or various other reasons that might become apparent when building the plug and mold. The plug and mold would be elevated a few inches above the platform and the platform would not be an actual part of them.

    Building another would also allow you to make any alterations you might want. One thing I did when I made the plug and mold was make the sheer line a few inches higher so as to be able to make the canoe deeper for extra capacity if needed. Even if the sheer line won't ever change on the finished product, trimming down to the finished sheer line, after cure, assures the finished edge is properly laminated, which isn't always the case when the finished line is at the edge of the mold. If you use wood trim, the edge of the laminate will most likely be exposed, and bad lamination showing there is kind of like a loud fart during a moment of silence. There is a point, when the laminate is still green, but not too green and not too set, that a laminate can be trimmed with a utility knife, slicker than snot, but the chances of hitting that time window are about the same as hitting lotto tickets.

    I'm assuming you know a little about glasswork and also whether you need a two or more piece mold. Negative angles and such.

    The more I post about this, the more I think I may have been too pessimistic.
    One decided advantage a small operation has over a big one is a small overhead. Adherence to regs and restrictions and the Fine Points of Business can sometimes be overlooked, skirted or at least kept reasonable. Just remember that whether big or small, there are dangers to using the chemicals associated with fiberglass. Short term and long term, and not only physical and environmental, but sometimes financial.

    I just want to put a waiver in here that no matter what advice I give or what it might seem like, I actually am not your mama. ;)
     
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  15. amery1836
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    amery1836 Junior Member

    SamSam, I Realy Appreciate the time you're spending on my posting. I Think what I will do is use this one for my plug. I should be able to make another plug from the mold I'll construct right or am I missing something?? If I could then finish out the oringinal strip canoe with a color finish. I did order up that book that you mentioned. In Constructing a 2 peice mold How do you make the part line? Thanks Again
     
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