Look at What Happens to Peaceful Protesters in the States

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by CatBuilder, Sep 24, 2011.

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  1. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    Where did I tell anyone, "accept what's wrong with the US, instead of trying to fix it"? Nowhere.

    We've been trying to fix the country since the day it was founded, and I see no reason to quit now. But meanwhile, I object to hearing it called a crap-hole -- because I've been to countries that really are.
     
  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I don't think I'm guessing wildly. Either they are the 99% or they are not.
     
  3. Dave Gudeman
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    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    I was talking about this sentence from your post that I quoted: "
    The US didn't listen to them either."

    I hope you see how this sentence might make someone think that you were complaining that the US didn't listen to the anti-war mobs. In fact, given the context, I can't imagine what else it might have meant.

    I don't take absolutist or politically-motivated positions. Individual wars and individual budget items have to be justified on their own merits. Some wars are necessary; some are not. Some budget items are suitable for the federal government; the vast majority are not. But the main thing that *is* suitable for the federal government to spend money on is defense.
     
  4. Dave Gudeman
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    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    I think you are missing the point, Troy. I believe Gonzo was making the logical argument that if these protestors really are "the 99%" as they claim, and if they vote, then they would overwhelmingly win all elections.

    This is just a logical point. The conclusion to draw from it is not that they don't vote, but that they don't really represent the 99%.
     
  5. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    That's like saying civil rights marchers in the 60's didn't represent or speak on behalf of blacks, because they marched by the dozens and hundreds instead by the thousands, and hadn't won any elections.

    I repeat: when the demonstrators say they are the 99%, they obviously mean they're part of it and speaking out on its behalf. That's so obvious I shouldn't even need to say it, much less have to repeat it.

    And given that there hasn't been an election since the Occupy demonstrations began, it's a bit silly to say the demonstrators haven't won any elections, isn't it? Especially since they seem to pride themselves on not being organized, having leaders, or having an agenda or set of demands?

    If you go back and read what Gonzo wrote, he didn't just make some 'logical argument.' He said, quite clearly and specifically, that "...they had the right to vote, which they didn't exercise."

    I think he's wrong. I'm willing to bet a whole lot of them did vote.

    But as has been pointed out repeatedly, a vote doesn't really mean much when the choice is between Tweedledum and Tweedledee. And the Supreme Court ruling allowing basically unlimited corporate campaign financing has pretty well insured that at the national level that's the choice we're going to have for a while, when it comes to candidates' financial ties to big business.
     
  6. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    If you notice Dave although I could go after this issue as vehemently as I go after the climate change issue, its just nice to see a healthy discussion. Even if you do radically misrepresent the meaning of the 99% catch Phrase. In the climate change thread we've got zero healthy discussion because the climate deniers simply ignore even the most basic tenants of the science and spew nonsense about the issue.

    Over here at least we have a variety of political views which each is more than entitled to hold if they please, yes, even yours Dave.

    Gonzo Cat Troy, everyone's got there two cents to pitch in and i"m all for it, pretty sure they call it free speach. I say that your guys vote should also count. But what good is a choice if the same old tired corrupt corporate oligarchy / fascist regime, decides on who's on the ticket. Not much of a choice when virtually none of our present representatives, congressmen, whatever aren't on the corporate take.

    The systems broken, the way to fix it is by removing the corporate influence from all aspects of the political process. Then maybe the vote will be an effective means for change, but until then, the vote is virtually irrelevant.

    we now return you to your normally scheduled programing
     
  7. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    You said they didn't vote. That's where you were guessing.
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    It was a rash generalization on Gonzo's part. He'd probably just spilled his beer and was just distracted. Personally I almost never spill beer but anyone named Gonzo has likely got a chronic case. Give him a moment and I'm sure he'll be ok, unless of course it was his last beer, then we're in trouble.:p:p:p:p:p
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Firstly, they claim to represent 99% of the population; I believe that is not true. Secondly, they try to divide the population in two groups and force everyone to be for or against them; I despise that "us or them" attitude. Thirdly, if they did vote, they got what they elected.
     
  10. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    Sure. From a choice of candidates they might well despise. If there are no candidates who represent their interests or views they are free to protest and use other means of effecting change.

    Who knows, it might be that most US voters don't mind the way politicians, lobbyists and others currently do business.
     
  11. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    I have no idea, perhaps one of our resident Americans can answer.

    When you vote, must you strike an "X" next to a name??

    Or, can you leave the whole form blank, and thus vote, but registering your disapproval of the crop of candidates, by not actually selecting anyone..?
     
  12. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    Troy, I wasn't referring to the crap-hole part ! Sis Hoyte man, but I know why you say so - it could be a lot different. :D

    We've gone through what you are going to begin experiencing soon or probably have already - and Gonzo hits right on the mark there.

    Every time an election nears here there are a racial turmoil created by the so called autrocities advertised on Tv of what whites did to blacks causing people that work and live in relative piece year in and year out now suddenly become enemies so the ANC government can gain their majority black vote.
    http://www.faze.co.za/South Africa Truth/Index Page.htm

    Sorry I know I'm off topic but so you can recognize it when it happens there by you.
     
  13. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    I'd be surprised if you MUST put an "X" next to a name, because that would mean someone can see your vote. If you don't, it just becomes an informal vote.

    In Australia, the number of "Informal" (i.e. invalid) votes is usually greater than the difference between the two major parties.
     
  14. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    When the returning officer reads out the number of votes cast, do they include in that total the "informal" as you've called them? Or do they does tally up the "valid" votes and not even mention the invalid ones?
     

  15. Leo Lazauskas
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    Leo Lazauskas Senior Member

    The invalid votes are recorded, collated and reported.
    http://results.aec.gov.au/15508/Website/HouseInformalByState-15508.htm

    Informal votes accounted for 5.55% of the total in Australia at the last election.

    Some candidates would love to get 5.55%!
    I'm fairly sure that there were more invalid votes than formal ones cast in the USA for, say,
    Ralph Nader when he stood. I'm not sure if "invalid" beat Ron Paul last time.
     
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