Look at What Happens to Peaceful Protesters in the States

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by CatBuilder, Sep 24, 2011.

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  1. Dave Gudeman
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    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    You mean like the part where I linked to examples of a dozen political organizations that are organized as corporations to show that you are wrong that they don't? There are thousands more examples. How many do you want?
     
  2. GTO
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    GTO Senior Member

    I admit it. If it comes down to Americans working in America instead of Peruvians or Mexicans or anyone else for that matter, I'm all for employing American citizens.
    And I'll point out that a lot of the people getting the newly vacated jobs are black people. So us whiteys might be whining and complaining here in ole 'bamy, but other colors are benefiting from it.

    As a matter of fact, many whiteys are complaining about the loss of their nearly free labor and want the law repealed so that they don't have to worry about minimum wages and such.

    As to your photo, I'll just note that historically, when a more advance culture bumped into a less developed one, it never went well for the primitives. And that was true of any skin color you care to bring up. The native Americans got the same treatment everyone else throughout history got and actually somewhat better than some. They weren't all killed.
     
  3. Dave Gudeman
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    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    Are you saying that you disagree with my characterization of real-life utopian anarchy or my characterization of idealized fascism? Or you still think it is reasonable to compare idealized utopian anarchy with real-life fascism?

    "Capitalism" is a Marxist word with Marxist connotations. I favor free enterprise which is just the economy you get when you have freedom with enough government control to enforce contracts and prevent coercion. Economic systems aren't a "blend" of socialism and free enterprise, rather economic systems are more or less free. It makes little difference whether restraints on freedom are done by a military dictator or an elected parliament; the personal and economic consequences are much the same.

    You are right that most economic systems today are not very free. That is why we are having so much economic trouble in a period where technology should be letting everyone live like kings. Too many of the resources that should be distributed to the people via free choices and free enterprise are being taken away by the ruling class to use "for our own good".

    OK, you've got me there. There have been a small number of countries who have actually managed to make a highly regulated and controlled economy work in cooperation with a form of democracy for half a century or so. Scandinavians seem to be an unusually cooperative people, and good for them.

    However the experiment isn't over yet, and my opinion of human cussedness is such that I don't think it will go on much longer. Corruption will continue to grow until government work becomes, not a service, but a good way to get rich. Eventually, the amount of wealth extracted from the economy to feed the greed of the ruling class and their clients will grow to the point of causing economic disaster, just as it has here and in the rest of Europe.

    Or has it already? I don't know how the Scandinavian countries are doing economically right now.
     
  4. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    We know ...very well how Denmark, The Netherlands, Germany...social countries... are doing. They out compete the US in all categories. They out compete you because there citizens must not gamble their hard earned salary on private pensions, private schools private health care , nor dodge NRA bullets when they bring their children to football games.
     
  5. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Norway.. Booming (oil and gas)
    Sweden.. Swell (cheap crown boosts economy)
    Finland.. Moderately (paying bils of Greece and co)
     
  6. GTO
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    GTO Senior Member

  7. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    What? That's not even close to the same thing. You aren't required to use roads or face a penalty. They are there for your convenience.

    Every law passed is something that controls the population. That's just fact.

    How about the other laws that are more recent, such as a requirement to have a "waitress license" to work at Applebees in many areas?

    Again, that controls the person and makes her go obtain some kind of silly document to prove she's "got what it takes" to be a waitress.

    There are countless examples.

    How about tax laws that push you (and I mean you, personally this time) to do various things, financially, even though they normally would not be in your best interest or in the interest of the larger economy? There are TONS of these we have to navigate every year. When you sell securities (sometimes) is not always at the highest point, but it's at the point when you will have lower taxes combined with some gain.

    How about the mortgage interest deduction?

    Every non-criminal law/legislation there is (for the most part) is a form of control the government is exercising on you, the citizen.

    If we can't agree that laws and legislation control the population, I'm not sure we can really have a productive discussion. Are you saying you (or most people) are above the law/legislation? It does not pertain and you can do anything you'd like to do, such as drive around MD without insurance on your car? :confused:

    Doesn't your MD government force you to buy it? :confused:

    MD's close to DC. Are you a diplomat? ;)

     
  8. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Yeah, I sometimes wonder what my Norwegian great grandfather was thinking! :D

    Looking at world figures for various countries for things such as:

    *median income
    *availability of medical care
    *education
    *HAPPINESS
    *etc...

    it never makes sense to me to hear people go on about how "socialism" is evil. It seems to me, that socialism provides every single brick of the foundation for a very strong country, full of very competent people - happy people. The States are full of angry, nervous, frightened people. However, socialism, when looking to the Nordic countries, seems to work a lot better.

    The people in them (median person) is far better off, financially, than those in the USA.

    So I never quite understand all this socialism bashing. Seems to work a lot better.
     
  9. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    Yep and the same place that your argument goes off the rails.

    All laws exist solely to serve the corporate oligarchy?

    Ah a better world- drivers without auto insurance.
    It's like a dream

    I suppose while you are developing the thesis that the US capitalist system is so corrupt you may wish to note that auto insurance is compulsory throughout Europe..
     
  10. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Laws are the base of any civil society. All of us give up person freedoms for the common good
     
  11. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member


    Of course not all laws. Only some. How about NAFTA and other global trade pacts? These helped destroy American jobs and they were pushed through, even though the general population wasn't for them. They were pushed through by big business to profit big business. NAFTA controls Americans. It controls the availability and pricing of the entire free market.

    Why is everyone such an extremist? You are, again, missing the details and nuance. You are trying to say that laws do not control things. I really can't have a discussion about this stuff if you aren't willing to concede that laws are how a government controls its people, economy, etc...

    If they aren't exerting control on the people and the economy, why do we have them? If they have no effect on us, why bother voting them through? I don't understand your counter point at all. Laws affect the things laws were passed to affect. Yet, you're denying this? :confused::confused:

    Also, that emotional response to the auto insurance thing... just raw emotion. "I'm glad there is insurance so the other driver can pay when I sue." That's raw emotion. I'm talking about the mechanics behind the law, not if you personally favor it. It was pushed through by the insurance industry so there would be more customers. JUST LIKE OBAMACARE. Same thing. The law *forces* the people to do something. Yet... you are saying the law does not force people to do something?

    This was supposed to be a discussion about the mechanics of government, not about if you like insurance or not.

    I'll say it one more time: Maryland law does not affect you? It does not require you to buy auto insurance? :confused::confused:

    PS: I know auto insurance is compulsory in Europe. They have the same problem. Much of the world has the same problem. You keep trying to defend US capitalism (to the death) here, but that's not what's at stake here. People, *globally* are starting to get fed up with governments that do not represent the will of the majority of people. The USA is but one of many places where this is the case. It's the one we usually talk about because it's the one we know best (being Americans). All that socialism off topic stuff was just a result of (if I recall) Dave talking about socialism and people piping in.
     
  12. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    I am going out to din din but a quick thought-

    Without doubt corporations and capital interests control government action.

    The principle manner of this control in the US is through LIMITING government influence, not increasing it.

    That is why we are stumbling along at 14% revenues while Europe has what- 38% on average?

    I find it of interest that you use 'laws' as your means of expressing the extent of the problem, where I believe the lack of them is the most salient example of corporate influence in the US.


    Not a well formed rejoinder but...
    :)
     
  13. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    It boggles my mind too.
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    no worries but I think they built the road system/highways as a way to ensure national security. WW2 and they discovered that it took a few months to move military vehicles from one coast to another. Might have been WW1 but its all the same. Industry had nothing to do with it, other than the oil and gas industry which did manage to foist off that sludge at the bottom of the refinery as road surfacing. Funny how the same stuff is also used in hot tar roofing, which aside from the nuclear industry has the highest incidence of cancer than any other industry.

    But yah industry, always looking out for the little guy.
     

  15. bntii
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    bntii Senior Member

    Oh my

    OK I am back from din din and have had a sec to read the above.

    I highlighted a couple of comments in red above- all is your text.

    Emotion- you are quoting your own thoughts and using them as an example of my 'emotional' response to an issue:

    That is your thought- I didn't say that & I have to say it is an 'emotional' response to the issue.

    Odd

    Insurance exists to mitigate liability and recover potential loss.
    I gladly accept that on a auto policy- state required or no.

    On my house which is dept free and I can easily replace- no insurance.


    Next:

    Then we are done
    It's interesting that you are characterizing others as being 'extremist'..
     
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