Little Wing 15 / Warren Light /Anybody sailed this boat?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Nov 13, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    This seems like a super neat little "gunkholer". I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has experience with this boat.

    http://www.warrenlightcraft.com/specs15sailds.html


    Specifications

    Length 15' 6"
    Width Overall 10' 5"
    Sail Area 82 sq. ft.
    Weight 68 lbs.
     

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  2. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    Has it been entered in the Everglades Challenge or any other watertribe event? Seems that would be it's best test overall, man with machine in the environment against it's similar competitors.
     
  3. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    The Nicol style ama fins are practical for shallow water and keep the main hull uncluttered. Are the amas asymmetrical as well?
     
  4. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    Can you please explain, what do you mean with "as well". In my opinion the main hull is not asymmetric. In think the wings are working above waterline. May be I am wrong.
     
  5. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group


    Apologies, Manfred, for Cavalier's writing style. The "as well" reference would suggest that the subject had already been mentioned, which in this case, it had not. It looks like Mr. Cavalier would be suggesting that the amas might be shaped as asymmetrical forms in the water to aid in lateral resistance. I suppose he is thinking that this would further reduce the need for any boards in the water, other than the molded ama fins and it would certainly make for one dandy looking boat.

    An example of this boat was entered in a Watertribe Everglades Challenge and it DNF'd due to equipment failure. I have not seen the design entered since then. One may wish to check the price for this machine. Doug has a thing for the posting of boats that have high price realities and this one certainly fits the bill.

    Just think how cool it would be if fitted-out with a spendy set of foils and all the gadgets to make them work? Now there would be a boat that would be perfectly suited for the shallow water and tight waterways of the Everglades Challenge. It might even be the next People's Foiler?
     
  6. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    I gotta check out that rigging a bit closer .....
    as one building a boat for the EC (the 300 mile Everglades Challenge) and more specifically the UFC (the 1200 Ultimate Florida Challenge), free standing roller reefing rigs have got my full attention! It's only a 7.6 sq meter sail though ..... I gotta think in terms of windsurfing terms as that is what I'm used to.

    edit: (from the website)
    Choice of a sailplan reflects the designer’s goal. I chose a Marconi rig. It consists of a fully battened mainsail with an aggressive roach. The sail is made by Doyle Sailmakers and when trimmed properly it produces an awesome foil shape. The long traveler on the mainsheet allows the sail to be properly trimmed at any wind heading. The roller-furled jib adds a significant amount of power and gives a good ride downwind. This type of sailplan has proven itself from America's Cup racing to offshore ORMA 60 trimarans. It also helps with the goal of making this a safe sailing experience. With this rig I was able to keep the center of effort of the sailplan at a scant 6 feet above the water. This along with the large stability from the outriggers prevents the boat from capsizing unless sailing in very high winds. The main sail also has one reef point for sailing in high winds and if necessary the boat can be sailed with only the jib.

    bottom Line:
    nope, it's not roller furling for the main. Not with those battens in it ......
     
  7. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Hi Manfred, sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the ama shape. Hedley Nicol and others have used asymmetrical amas for leeway resistance in shoal draft craft, in his case also using fins like the ones shown. It makes a lot of sense for a canoe style boat or conversion since the main hull doesn't need a trunk put in. I sail a large Nicol tri with the ama fins currently removed but the asymmetric shape still gives leeway resistance as they immerse deeper. The english usage while not perhaps current was correct. The illustration is a bit unclear on the overhead view. It actually looks like 2 different amas which only makes sense if they were testing different ideas.
     
  8. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

  9. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Out here on the west coast we have our own style and don't need to import.......(extra punctuation to be used where needed) Now, where is my poetic license? I do want to be legal.......(more extra punctuation)
     
  10. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    Thx

    @cardsinplay and cavalier mk2 thank you both for your kind help with your information. Since my mothers language was not engl/american/austr. it is not so easy for me to understand the postings fully. My Franklin Electronic "Wörterbuch" with 1,8 Mill. Words is far from being a perfect help. But when it fails it offers an excuse. That is progress.

    It is amazing for me that nearly 50 years after the work of Edmond Bruce (AYRS, London) there seems to be now an "explosion" in using hydrodynamic foils for Monos and Multihulls. Therefore I`m reading with great interest the contributions here esp. those of Doug Lord who seems to be very creative in producing new designs with foils and math.. Hope he will test them in reality.

    Concerning the Cavalier MkII design of Hedley Nicol I was never aware before that he was dealing with asymmetric floats for his trimarans. And it is interesting indeed to read here that they work. I`ll try to get more infos about this boat. Thank you!
     
  11. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Hi Manfred, the Nicol designs all used asymmetric floats/amas as well as fins for lateral resistance in the often shallow, and reef strewn waters of Australia. My boat is a modified Vagabond MK2 design. Hedley Nicol's designs were influenced by the AYRS, reading through old issues it is interesting to see how much of what was being explored back then is being implemented now with better materials.
    Your English far exceeds my German, a good reminder to us all that on a forum with international members that we should try to be clear in our communications. At times the play with words here exceeds the thought going into the boats!
    The amas are like a Hobie 16 in producing more lift the faster you sail. But then that is how foils are supposed to work. Using combinations of these things for a boat's intended purpose seems to be the way cope with the wide performance envelope of modern multihulls.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==========
    Manfred, thanks for your astute comments! I certainly hope to test my Trapwing and probably the MPX-12 down the line. I have designed and experimented with foilers since the 70's and believe that the use of foils-well designed and implemented-can add a lot to sailing in both mono's and multies.
    And it is gratifying to see more and more designers leaning in that direction as well. Thank you for being part of boatdesign.net!
     
  13. cardsinplay
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    Just a few things before this thread, too, spin’s off in some crazy direction where foils are being discussed.

    I got after Cav man regarding the quality of his language skills, because in the past he has been one of the proponents of hair splitting and wordsmithing in order to make his iffy points. It's nothing more and nothing less. He's simply getting his own medicine.

    Manfred makes a passing comment that probably should have been relegated to the threads that deal with such when he said, "It is amazing for me that nearly 50 years after the work of Edmond Bruce (AYRS, London) there seems to be now an "explosion" in using hydrodynamic foils for Monos and Multihulls." That's a nice and worthy observation, but it does not apply to the work of Ted Warren and this little kayak-turned-into-a-trimaran, that is the basis of this thread

    Doug, of course, runs off about foils at every opportunity, rather than solid, basic design goals. You see him here talking, once again, about vertical lifting foils with, "I certainly hope to test my Trapwing and probably the MPX-12 down the line. I have designed and experimented with foilers since the 70's and believe that the use of foils-well designed and implemented-can add a lot to sailing in both mono's and multies."

    Why, of course, Mr. Lord, this is a conversation about foils and your own query in the first post indicates such... or does it, when you say, "This seems like a super neat little "gunkholer". I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has experience with this boat." In that simple sentence, there is not one indication of anything having to do with vertical lift foils and yet, here we are, blathering-on about foils, once again.

    Doug, if you can't keep to your own premise in the first post (and I hardly regard foilers as gunkholers) then how are you ever going to insist that anyone keep to your initial premise in any other threads you start?

    The big bad blatant truth of the matter, should one care to explore this field with something like care, is that... There are very few original foiling boats in existence. The foiling Moth is not of that breed as it is an adaptation from a development class and it is the most successful foiler to date. All other transitional foiling boats are from other, more successful, varieties that have had foils slapped on them for experiment and nothing more.

    The most successful foiler, the Moth, is currently struggling so badly with sales that Bladerider has gone dark. Fastacraft, the guys who first flashed a foiling Moth onto the world, has apparently also gone dark. The remnants of this so-called foil revolution, are relegated to adapting foils to discarded dinghy hulls, (check the guys in England who are screwing around with RS600 hulls and others) fiddling with highly experimental foil equipped boats such as Mirabaud (the only one in existence) which are so tweaky that nobody has bothered to do another, more refined version and other, seriously hampered splinter groups of foil equipped machines that will most likely, also, go nowhere with the vaguely interested boating community.

    Foils, unto themselves, will never unseat better overall design work. You can see this in the A-Cat environment where a collection of committed boaters have summarily dismissed the use of lifting foils as a rule adaptation for their class. While that foil rejection has been going on, they have routinely bettered their design capabilities to the point where a boat that is two years old, is no longer front line capable of winning a race. It is that kind of development that actually moves design attitudes to more effective performance boats and not the simple business of slapping foils onto a hull and calling it good, or God Help Us... A People's Foiler.

    What do you guys say that we turn away from this foiling stuff and get back to the original post and discuss the Ted Warren designed trimaran adaptation to his very interesting kayak. There is much to be learned with this boat, should we direct our interest to the primary purpose of this thread. Ted is probably accessible for comment, as I would guess, is his son, who piloted one of the sailing versions in an Everglades Challenge and could offer quite a bit of feedback on the design and its future.

    You OK with that, Doug... That we discuss the topic that you originally posted and leave foiling out of the mix?
     
  14. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    What a card ! And as usual, his muse needs a fuse.......So are the amas asymmetrical?
    It is hard to sail , except with the wind, without foils of some kind. Leeway resistance has to be managed, steering has to be accomplished and if stability can be assisted let us hear it for multi-tasking. Where to use these different features has a lot to do with a boat's intended purpose and area of operation.
     

  15. cardsinplay
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    I don't see the amas as asymmetrical. If they are assy., from looking at these few images, then they are on the wrong side of the hulls to be of any use going upwind. It's not out of the question that Ted W would play the assy ama card, but it is not like any of his previous design studies that I have seen. I believe that the image below pretty much puts to rest the question of assy. amas

    There's a couple of ideas as to why he took the plunge on the ama fin keels. One is that the kayak, itself, is made from vacuum bagged carbon in an open mold (or maybe even autoclaved) with a foam core. As such, it is a spendy boat for which Ted is asking a pretty dear price. I think because of that, he has opted to reduce fixturing of a leeboard to the exotic hull in order to keep it as sano as possible. One thought.

    The other thought is that he (Ted) has spread the akas as far apart as comfortable in order to allow for a full paddle stroke and give sufficient support to the amas in the forward areas (allowing for a lighter build) By putting the forward aka in front of the mast socket, he is saying that it is too far of a reach to get the leeboard all the way back and deep enough for the center of effort on the sail. Hence the ama integrated foil structures. Thought two.

    If the boat is all about light weight and efficient sailing/paddling because of its light weight, then certain choices need to be made in order to hit all the high notes in the design brief.

    I started off in this business designing sailing rigs for sea kayaks and canoes and have spent untold hours examining all the variable solutions that make for an effective boat of this type. Ted's solutions are the high end approach and it is a very nice looking craft. I would suppose that prospective buyers take a serious gulp when they discover how much Ted is asking for a sailing kayak/tri and that they then turn to the much lesser level of finish and materials of the Hobie Adventure Island boats, single and double versions.
    The market we are experiencing probably doesn't help sales either.

    Still, Ted has not hesitated to make a real design statement that is attention grabbing and from all the folks I know who have paddled one; a very nice boat.

    This is true, Cav
     

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