Little Catamarans Vs. Little Trimarans for Beachcamping

[Fanie]

Hey Hans,

I cannot but agree with you, that is a cute little boat ! Haven't seen anything so impressive in a long time. Especially the trailer

Very impressive indeed. Where do we give him points ?

 

[rayaldridge]

Isn't that a terrific little boat! I've been checking the blog every day. I hope he gets to another WIFI point soon, because I'm really enjoying the story.

I think it sheds a lot of light on the subject of this thread. Show me a 16 foot cruising tri with that combination of room and performance. And Miss Cindy doesn't need demounting.

Ray

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/

 

[dstgean]

Little cats are the treat for quick launching. Rigs must be kept managable as a cruising load will render most cats impossible to right. Folding tris are fantasitc as well if they have the folding system dialed in. I wonder if an asymetrical cat might be a nifty way to keep righting possible on somewhat larger cats in the low 20' range--keep all stores, camping equiptment, personal effects in one hull and keep the other one really light and right it with the lighter hul coming over the top. I'm interested in a jumbo beachcat based open cruiser at about 20-21'. I either need to make the cruiser darn near impossible to capsize with a smaller rig like Ray used, make it wider with the attendent trouble some of the cat sliding systems/awkward trailering, or make it easy as a beachcat to right.

Thoughts?

Dan

 

[BWD]

D. StG
Asso style
yeah, Berque it!

http://www.creartisto.com/sansboussole/bateau_en.html

 

[dstgean]

Thanks BWD,

I've read through that site, and I already have a tacking outrigger!

Dan

 

[rayaldridge]

Dan, you might be interested in an idea for extending Slider's beam that one of my Italian plans buyers came up with, and was kind enough to let me publish.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/?p=91

Look down the page; the first part is really just an explanation for why I decided to offer plans for Slider.

I suspect that if you were to extend the beam to 10 feet, you might be able to get away with using a beach cat rig and still have a reasonable degree of stability. No cat is immune to capsize, of course, but some rigs are more sensible than others.

 

[jamez]

You're unlikely to get equivalent payload in a 16 foot tri without designing a main hull so fat it would effectively be a float stabilised mono. The point I think, is not to try. Heres a nice little micro cruising tri from aussie designer Ray Kendrick. In the cabin it has comfortable seating which converts to a (tight) double berth, space for a portaloo and to cook. Its designed weight is around 440lbs with a payload to dwl of 330lbs. As a beach cruising tri, that still has the potential for exciting sailing performance (the prototype has been clocked at over 13 knots) I think this is a pretty good compromise.

http://www.teamscarab.com.au/Scarab16.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irHGStdhQK8&feature=related

 

[dstgean]

Dan, you might be interested in an idea for extending Slider's beam that one of my Italian plans buyers came up with, and was kind enough to let me publish.

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/?p=91

Look down the page; the first part is really just an explanation for why I decided to offer plans for Slider.

I suspect that if you were to extend the beam to 10 feet, you might be able to get away with using a beach cat rig and still have a reasonable degree of stability. No cat is immune to capsize, of course, but some rigs are more sensible than others.

Although I've read your entire site many times, I never saw that section! I like it. I think one of the trailers that has the raised center section for pontoon boat might be the ticket for such a craft. It's a different mechanism than the Shark, but a good one. I like it. I've seen the Woods designs, of course, with a substantially larger version of that concept, which promises good performance and speedy assembly. For some reason i hadn't thought of it for this boat building process. I keep coming back to the Double tamanu canoe at 10-12' beam using the H18 rig. It would be speedy, not fast like a beachcat, but quick enough. Reef the main to keep the pressure off the rig in a blow, and reuse as many of the parts as possible to keep the build fast and costs down.

I am also talking with Chris O about some strip/ply hulls instead of the Tamanu hulls, but that has yet to be finalized. Either way, I'm about ready to get going!

Dan

 

[ThomD]

"I think it sheds a lot of light on the subject of this thread. Show me a 16 foot cruising tri with that combination of room and performance. And Miss Cindy doesn't need demounting."

Well apaprently she needs roof racking! The thing about a tri is that it can be longer than a 16 foot cat, it seems to me. In fact, when dealing with trailerable boats, the 16 foot limit doesn't make much sense to me except for the fact that it allows one to claim a 50% beam on a trailerable fixed width cat. And it all fits in a plywood module. I think that is a great option in the form of a Jarcat, or Economy Cruiser, Miss Cidy, etc... I think that we will also see some cats over that length that don't sail like dogs, and take advantage of the trail blazed by the G32. I have one on my drawing board, but I am currently rethinking my decision to go hard chine due to weight. The idea is to get up to the H18 rig with a boat that has the 8' width, water ballast and self righting, but in my case not a lot more performance than the 16 footers, just clean them up a bit. I know at least one guy who wants high performance and is going to 26 feet. As long as they stay with the launching, storing, trailering ease of the 16 footers, I think they are still "little".

I do get scared at the thought of all the tech such cat projects require. When that happens I think center cockpit tris with enough space for a decent aft berth. Shorter fatter Trems. There comes a point when the format of the Farrier or Dragonfly type thing gets too short, you sit in the back, the bow goes up in the air. Most of the accomodation space is wasted (no wing berths and the center hull is nasty narrow). On the positive, the amas get small enough for one person to move. When that point comes I think the center cockpit demountable amas with one person hand raiseable spar option, become a real contender. What they don't offer is the so called 4 berths of a Jarcat. But the reality is a lot of this stuff is solo anyway. Daysail with a few, overnightign is one guy and someone not more than 100 pounds. Mostly cruise solo. I think the tri starts to be a contender on those terms. Just depends what you need.

 

[edvb]

This has been a great discusion on small camping multihulls. One other option are the ideas I incorperated on my outrigger sailling canoe. Like Chris I wanted to setup and be ready to sail quickly. I wanted stability in heavy air and be able to go in shallow water.

By modifying a Raptor 16, I was able to meet these goals.

I built a small trailer to haul the boat and now I only have to put the mast on the mast base, pull the lines tight and I am ready to sail. Time is less than five minutes.

Roller furling sail with removable stays will let me optimize my 90 Sq Ft fully battened sail.

Daggerboard and being able to lower or raise the rudder lets me paddle in the shallowest water of about 6"

Water ballast in the ama with the roller furled sail makes it very stable in heavy air. I removed the Bruce foil as it was no longer needed.

Very easy to right even from a turtle position.

Will carry all the camping gear needed to be comfortable.

Did I say fast

Like many others here you get a lot of ideas of what you want and need in a boat. For what I do this works perfect for me but it took a few years to iron out all the bugs. Just to show what can be done even with existing boats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHR7mg5LBz0

 

[bill broome]

i enjoyed this thread because self build boats can be narrow and even strange, having to satisfy only one person.

mixing strider hulls and j6 accomodation is a very charming idea, and ross turner suggested one way to do it with his j7. it would have been much better as a 6 meter boat, in my view, the j7 is too slow at launch/retrieve.

i am a recent convert to tris, in the 6,7 meter range. you get a human sized hull without the need for a central deck assembly, and if the ayas are foldable, launch/retrieve time almost as good as a one-piece cat.

as for gunk-holing, i just tow a kayak.

 

[dstgean]

as for gunk-holing, i just tow a kayak.

I saw another H18 do that on the first T200 and they had lots of problems with yawing and broaching of the yak. How have you done with yours?

This last year we did the T200 in a double Tamanu with the H 18 rig, tramp and beams. The beams were not up to the task, but we made it...

Admittedly it was the first time we put the boat together, but it took forever. I'm leaning towards the 8'6" version for the future.

Dan

 

[bill broome]

can't help much about towing, never had any problem, 5kts or 15.

my kayak was[stolen, somebody else liked it even more] directionally stable, with 3 full length ribs, and maybe that was the answer. play with the tow length, of course.

making a single outrigger work can't be easy, i would have said impossible till i see this raptor coping with fast tacks. there is some slick pickup and dumping of water ballast there.

 

[edvb]

Bill

On that video I just added about a 1/2 tank of ballast and left it in during the whole time shooting the video. I also reefed the sail a little when it started getting gusty. The combo gave me total control and I was having a blast sailing that day.

I am adding a removable fore and side stays that are quickly adjustable to add even better performance upwind.

The ballast system has worked very well last year and has really tamed the Raptor to the point that I removed the Bruce foil.

The speed is about the same on both tacks and and so controllable that I can sail the boat almost in my sleep.

The battery pack that I made up fits in the Ama and lasted the whole summer on one charge. It has been a very reliable system.

 

[Chris Ostlind]

Hi Ed,

If you could, will you take a moment to knock around the benefits vs losses of having ditched the foil setup (all of it) as measured against the possible gain in weight of going with water and the needed electrical/mechanical stuff?

Let me simply say that I'm very impressed with your logical approach to creating an alternate solution for the righting moment considerations present in your boat's design. I'm also taken by the simple, functional way in which the system performs for you. Very nice work.