Little America's Cup 2010-C CLass-the real one..

[Doug Lord]

Doug, I am intrigued and enlightened by your threads. I don't have much constructive to add but wanted to let you know that I appreciate and am disturbed that the moderator allows the stalkers to follow and pester you. Keep up the good work!

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Thanks, Mark!

 

[Doug Lord]

Little America's Cup----Team Invictus

Larso on SA-just before shipping here:


It really is great to see things hotting up in the C class. Our team have been busy over on this side of the Atlantic polishing our knife for the upcoming gun-fight. Last weekend we went for our second last sail before shipping. It went off without a hitch and the boat performed as well as we could hope for in that we only made improvements and nothing broke. Thanks to some good work by Julien and Phil we had the new lower element 2 (little slot flap between the large leading edge and rear flap) fitted and have finally got the sort of slot geometry we hoped for. Trouble is that it now highlights how much the upper element 2 can be improved.
We also changed around the camber and linkages for the upper and lower control horns so that they are independant of each other. The result is that we now have a much stiffer Trailing edge which doesn't fall off as much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NibyCmfDnVE
With only one more weekend to go we have to work hard on our achievables and get rid of all other things off the 'wish' list. We finally got some instrumentation on the boat but it might be too late for it to help us at all in the upcoming event. The main reason we have pushed on with it will be to use the next event to collect some good data from off the boat during a real race. We have a combination of Tacktick and Pi/Cosworth data loggers. We will only carry it onboard if the racing gets a bit one -sided as we don't need extra weight and windage otherwise. It should be a good little package that can give us a real VMG. To get it right takes a lot of work but then we will have a big enough team in Newport. Instruments are good... but nothing near as good as lining up against another boat. We have no idea how on or off the pace we are against the boat we will be coming up against in Newport. I think we can safely say that we will be heavier. I don't think our hulls will make the major difference. The relative performance of the wing will be the deciding factor in terms of plain old boat speed. I am looking forward to seeing what Steve will be putting on his platform being the chief
On the weekend we sailed INVICTUS in winds from 5 to 18 knots. We still have to get rid of the deep dolphin striker and those planks at the back that we steer with... and we are going to humour ourselves with one other mod which should give us a nudge of straight line speed at the expense of a level of complication.
Here's a few of Helena's pics.

 

[TTS]

Guys Chris and Doug, in short get a room you both utter such crap I find it hard to come on here and before you go on with further crap Chris with your very well worded ramblings I really do not give a hoot re your opinion of me or mine. You both quote well reputed designers as an assertion of your knowledge however you could both take a bit from their book and stop the crap. How often do you see Eric or Mr Wood or any of the other quoted designers utter such crap as you two do.........????

It is this that keeps me off of this site most of the time. I have said it before, but you know the animosity between the two just knows no bounds. Kind of sad and very trying. Oh well, I have more to do in life than to bother reading any of those posts. Yours just caught my eye. So much for the diversion.

 

[Doug Lord]

It is this that keeps me off of this site most of the time. I have said it before, but you know the animosity between the two just knows no bounds. Kind of sad and very trying. Oh well, I have more to do in life than to bother reading any of those posts. Yours just caught my eye. So much for the diversion.

=======================
TTS, did you read posts 41,42,43,& 44? A little help in the right direction can go a long way.......And don't forget the missing posts....

 

[TTS]

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Well, thats easy "B"-outside of the obvious ridiculousness of insisting that C Class guys post details of their race boats before the Little Americas Cup- they aren't posting on a "boatdesign" forum.

While Steve sometimes posts here, most of the posting they do is on SA. Sometimes they share information and other times they don't. With the I4C coming up, all you will get are teasers. What is great though is that Steve to begin with shared a great deal of information with Fred so that the Canadian team could get up to speed and to help foster growth in the C-Class. He shared enough information so that Fred and crew won the last event. this time around, both have new platforms and probably new engines (wings) to drive the boats. Fred built Orion last year and just recently launched his new boat Cannan. Steve also has a new boat "Aethon" that should be launched this week if it has not already seen the water. Steve's boat was laid up in his shop and Fred ( I think named Canaan though could be wrong" had his new boat laid up at Multimatic. Two different approaches but in the end two fine platforms. This is going to be a spectacular event with many great sailors sailing on the beasts. Both Steve and fred deserve a great deal of credit for sharing their information to newcomers in their class as well as allowing others to charter or race their other platfoms.

At the race will be:
Cogito
Aethon
Alfa
Orion
Canaan
PLVI
Inviticus
Off Yer Rocker

There will be US, Canadian, British, Australian and French teams though they may not all be flying their own flags. Great sailors; Clark, Ashby, Eaton, Guck, Spittal, Larson, Kaiser, Moore, Gaynor, Koch, Levaillant and more. The shore teams are also quite the crew. MacClane and Hubbard on the US team with many more names to follow and Norman Wijker, Julien Chausee, Phil Brown, Andrew Boome, Mark Bishop, Pete Baker and Helena Darvelid on the British team with Rossi Milev, Jen Clarke, Peter Wickwire, Dirty boy, AKA dirty boy, Steve Killing, Bill Coxedge and the guys at Multimatic for the Canadians. And many more! What everyone needs to look at in terms of sharing information is that these guys are doing that. They are doing it within the class to help foster growth, promote development and to ensure great competition, if they do not post here and you want to get some of this information, then go to the I4C (formerly LAC) and watch the races, support the event and talk with they teams in between the racing. Go look at the boats, the wings, the appedages and all of other little bits that make a c-class catamaran.

Posted by fredo On SA
"On the shore crew we'll have all sorts I think.

Rossi Milev, he was with us on BOR 90 on night watch, where he also worked with the shore crew and build team, he has had a hand in building all the boats on the Canadian team as he spends a lot of time working at Multimatic where we build the big bits of the boat before assembly. A fantastic J-24 sailor and intensely competetive guy originaly from Bulgaria. Rossi also sails Melges, Farr 40's and other boats of that ilk. If Rossi is in a pissy mood you just need to give him something to sand and he'll cheer right up once he smells a wiff of carbon dust.

Jen Clarke, wife, social convenor, team supporter, photographer and most importantly she procures booze for the team.

Big Show, Peter Wickwire, not likely to come to the event, but sometimes helm, he drove PL at the last event, and is our match racing coach.

Dirty boy, AKA dirty boy, lead tender driver.

Like Steve Clark, we have a number of others getting lined up for the event, so it's not final just yet.

Steve Killing. our naval architect and engineer. Steve is the voice of logic and reason on the team,(A marked counter point to me). Fantastic guy to work with, very disciplined. He draws a mean canoe, which has made him very good at drawing boats like Alpha. As a team we aall collaborate on design goals, objectives, ideas and other fuckery, but it's Steve who puts it all into a set of drawings that makes sense and has actual math behind it. He has a natural talent for taking complex topics and making them easy to digest. Steve has had a hand in drawing 12 meters back in the day and has worked for a variety of America's Cup teams in a secret capacity that he can explain better than me.

Bill Coxedge and the guys at Multimatic. You need guys like Bill to pull off a great C-class program, mostly because he has a 25' long autoclave and he is evangelical about using it. Object 2 Skiff works has collaborated for about a decade now with Bill and his team and it's well worth it. With access to the highest modulus carbon and an incedible shop, you only ever get good stuff out of them. Their attention to detail is fanatical. They mostly stamp out brake parts for Detroit, but it's their composites R+D shop that has the good stuff. Watch an F-1 race, Indy or bespoke high end auto show on TV and chances are you are seeing some of their parts flying around the track."


From SHC posted on SA
"I think the biggest fleet may have been in '77. The US defence trials had in the order of 14 entries. Many of these were Aquarius V clones except that they were heavier and not as well sorted out. Others were modified Tornadoes but there was quite a handful of things that were called C Class.

Cogito is USA 104. She was designed by Duncan MacLane and built in the Point Farm Barn by a party of favorites lead by Henry Elliot and Erich Chase. It is probably safe to say that she is the definitive modern C Cat. All up sailing weight is 378 lbs, 3 element single slotted twisting wing, and asymmetric daggerboards. unfortunately she has spent too many of her 15 years stored in a box waiting for someone to make something for her to play with.

USA 105 has been going by a number of shop names. The original drawings were saved under the heading "April Fool" because I started them on All Fool's Day. The fact that this is also my brother's ( who taught me how to build things)birthday is a bonus. I too am an April child so it seemed to fit. Then i got into swords and weapons a bit and Tsurugi caught my attention. a Tsurugi is a japanese double edged sword, which seemed pretty appropriate. Then all of the weirdo Hentai stuff showed up and I liked it less. Recently we have been thinking that Pointed Stick or Sharp Stick might be more appropriate. We will call it something sooner or later.
This boat is my design and has been built by Oliver and I over the last 18 months, It seems like it has been forever, but it either takes time or money, and I have more time than money. I make no bold claims but have high hopes. We are more or less on weight, which means we will probably end up heavier than Fredo's boats.
The sailing team is Lars Guck,Oliver Moore, Andrew Gaynor, and Steve Clark. Duncan MacLane has become first reserve and coach. Dave Hubbard is our guru and Bill Slinko keeps everyone in line. "WHAT?"
SHC"

 

[Steve Clark]

Wing up,
It floats.
Name is Aethon
First sail with no crunching, snapping or other disquieting noises.

Actually sailing something you designed and built is a pure rush that I recommend to anyone.

SHC

 

[Doug Lord]

Aethon

Wing up,
It floats.
Name is Aethon
First sail with no crunching, snapping or other disquieting noises.

Actually sailing something you designed and built is a pure rush that I recommend to anyone.

SHC

============
Congratulations! I like the curved foils-any impressions about them so far?
UPDATE: check out the pictures below-appears to show variable cant for the curved daggerboards. Steve -can you explain the theory here?

Click on image-from SA/Clark:

 

[Steve Clark]

Variable cant angle.

It's pretty obvious that by changing the cant angle you change the proportion of side and vertical force generated by the dagger board.
As we believe the foil needs to do different things in different conditions and as we don't really know where the best compromise, we have made so that we can adjust it while sailing
That is the theory, at least. How much it really matters, how easy it is to manage and how sensitive the adjustment really is, will be determined via experience.
SHC

 

[Doug Lord]

Thanks, Steve. I'd like to hear your impressions of sailing the foils when you get a chance. Best of luck in August!

 

[Doug Lord]

Danger and Destruction

From Magnus on SA-quite a read:

Well Larso you're decision to keep her in the barn was probably a good one on balance.

If you don’t want to read the long version the précis version is, we lost one wing and nearly lost a second all in ten minutes………………………

This weekend we are playing host to the French team, Benjamin and Antoine came over to see how we handle the boats and to get to know PL in the shop back in the city.

Yesterday AM we set up Orion and Canann for a sail and some two boat testing. Fredo and I on Canaad and Robbie and Dan or Orion. We knew there were some squalls in the forecast but nothing too heavy from the sounds of it so off we went.

On leaving the harbour there was some nasty chop right at the channel entrance with the breeze seeming to be about 13 or so knots. Hogan in the tender said there was less breeze but not a big deal either way, so we proceed offshore to some flatter water. Had a good session going up and down a few times a couple of miles at a time. Things were going pretty well. We had a few big black clouds come down over the course with some more pressure, so we sailed around those.

Eventually we decided to head in and beat a bigger cell to the city. We thought we could get to the harbour where it wasn't too choppy and the French guys could have a go inside on the boats. Not a good idea to start them in this chop.

Well we sailed a few miles North then gybed East to the channel along the island. The pace was picking up the whole time, we were taking it as slow as we could and still doing 16-20's. Orion was about a mile behind us and we were happy to see them taking it slow. As we approached the spit we paced the Lake Ontario 300 crowd who was sliding downhill just off the city. Once we got to the spit we had to execute another gybe as we were out of water. So it was flat and getting breezy by this point but no big worries, we put the helm over, popped the wing and blasted off on port straight towards the channel. Now things were getting choppy again and crowded with 4KSB's and all manner of dinghies. We were almost making the channel so we decided to slide low to avoid another two gybes in a busy channel. The pace is picking up and the waves steeper.
Finally as we got to the mouth of the Eastern Gap we were following a Bene 50. They were heading in as well on Port, the same as us. no problem, we'd slide to leeward of them once inside the channel. We're now doing 20, with the wing flat against the shrouds and nowhere to ease out, two hulls down blasting through the back of the chop.

I look up to see the Bene spin out in a puff to their left. No problem, we're going to his right, another hundred yards and we'll be in the channel, flatter water and we can head up and have room to breathe. Another puff, I'm leaning back to hold the edge of the tramp and Fred is right off the transom. Then the Bene continues his spin out and crash tacks and ends up heading back almost towards us. No worries, Fred slides a little deeper, we're almost by the lee now and moments from getting past him and into safety. But alas, the behemoth has his jib still pegged to windward and is now bearing away uncontrollably hunting us in a crowded channel. We're now doing 22 and more pressure hits. The Bene lays down further as we try sliding even further to the lee, there's no hope of gybing out of this right were we are with our bows in the back of a wave every 5 seconds and the wing completely barn doored.

One last blast,,,,and,,,,we're done. both bows go down the mine in a big hard puff. My eyes are just forward as I desperately am leaning back trying for the back beam. Then I lose it, sliding forward on the tramp feet first. On the way down I know this means the unthinkable in a flash, the wing is gonna be gone, just try not to eat carbon or get killed. Green water back to the beam with the wing accelerating forward the platform at 45 degrees into the water. I manage to grab the mast step on the way by the wing so I won’t get mowed down by the boat. My feet hit the water so hard my shoe gets blown off my foot. I am lifting my head up to get one last breath when I see Fredo go airborne, again, over my head, way way way over my head, I see him long enough that I can watch him cannonball into the water 40 feet away from me at the tip of the wing. I thought well at least he's clear.

The wing hits the water about the same time I do so I cannot hear anything. Just as fast the boat pops up out of the water and flips over on one side. !@$)($%*)!!!!!. Then it gets weird. I am hanging in my harness from the wing just above the water. I had been strapped in acting as a running backstay and I'm still plugged in. I desperately try to get unhooked but I cannot lift myself off the hook. The boat starts downhill at 5-6 knots. With the tramp up there and now 30 knot gusts coming through we're picking up steam. I decide I better stay with the boat as the channel is Chaos now. The tender goes and retrieves Fredo while I try to figure something out and fast. With the tramp heading downhill and the wing up, it's not too bad, the wing is mostly in tact, if we can get this under control, we might save it. Then the next hit comes. One good waves lifts the tip of the wing and it starts to fly, very slowly, almost floating at first and then a gust picks the whole thing up and flings the boat upright.

I think, "Fantastic, I might save this" As the boat comes up it spins around and heads almost head to wind. I am still plugged into the trap so it picks me up to and I land on the tramp. I throw myself as far forward as possible off the front beam to get the bows down, then I'll go for the tiller.

Oh ****, one more puff and the whole boat blows over backwards. Enough of the top of the wing was damaged that the drag just killed it. That's when I head the nastiest carbon crunching I have heard since they pulled the BOR mast out of the water in SD with a forklift. The trailing edge hitting the water at speed was the end of it. The boat flips on its side again. This time I am trapped under the hull with my legs wrapped around god knows what. A quick near drowning and I get out of it. I duck under the hull to the dagger board side and find Antoine clinging to the bow in the water.

He’s got the tow line with him from the tender and works at getting it onto the bow near the forestay. He finally gets that on and we get the tender to go into the breeze slowly as we’re only a hundred yards from the lee shore. We have a quick discussion about options and take a breath.

Meanwhile Fred is on the radio to Orion, I see them cruising slowly down the South side of the outer harbour with a partially cacked wing, the clew is broken on the flap. They are trying to sort out where to gybe in some flat water to make for the inner harbour.

Back on board we have the tender go a little faster up wind. By now we’re watching large sections of wing float off to leeward through the channel to the beach. As we move upwill the remains of the wing start to clear the water. There no way we can cut if off easily at this point and I am just thinking we have to save the platform, the wing is toast but Canaan is OK so far. A few more feet uphill and I manage to stand up on the hull and grab the bottom of the tramp, a few good tugs and we pull the boat upright.

Antoine climbed on board as the boat even with a portion of a wing started to accelerate. He helped me up and then grabbed the tiller. In a few moments we were towing through the channel and to the club. The breeze was still on and the boat still was doing 12 knots or more without the tow line taught.

We dragged the whole show back to the dock and pulled her out. By now we had sent another tender out to retrieve Orion. Despite their best efforts, Orion had a broken tiller a broken flap and serious control issues. As soon as they got back to the dock we dropped Orion’s wing first as there was still serious squalls blowing through.

Subsequently we talked to someone who had sailed past us in the channel right before we killed it they had reported a 41 knot gust less than a KM from the death zone.

Later in the day some nice folks at St James Town YC called us to say they had retrieved some of our wing. We popped out to find out upper #3 in only 2 pieces, which was encouraging.

So a big thanks to Antoine for literally jumping right in there, Ben and Hogan for tender support, the guys at SJYC for getting #3 for us, Irwin and the boys for on shore help and as always. most of all, Fredo for making it all possible.

Now the big push is on to get the new Canaan wing out of the shop in the next week and functional. Then we have to fix the 06 wing which will now go on Alpha instead of Orion.
Unfortunately this now means 6 boats for the event. There is a slim chance that Robbie could stitch that wing back together in time for the event, but it’s a long shot. So we’ll see how that all goes.

We all knew this was the risk of sailing these boats and in retrospect it would have been prudent to head in after we saw the first squall. But C’est la vie.

More to report later 


update 7/19/10 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRYZjE6dpJI

 

[Gary Baigent]

That work of art slashed - terrible luck you blokes - good luck with the repairs.

 

[Doug Lord]

Invictus is amost on the way

Last sail before packing up:

 

[Doug Lord]

Aethon Flying,thats right F-L-y-i-n-g!

This is a hell of a picture: look very very closely:

 

[Doug Lord]

Aethon

Video: Sa from Steve- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vln5YWsXC4

 

[Steve Clark]

Doug:
Cool your jets. This is not a foiler. It is not intended to fly and will probably crash badly if it does. What you see in this picture is the boat coming out of a small wave and nothing more.
The curved daggerboard and T foils modulate the frequency of how the boat pitches in waves. Which is what I was trying to achieve. When the boat launches out of a wave, it kind of glides back to the surface instead of free falling. This reduces the severity of wave encounters and also the need for volume forward. Only very short time on the boat yet. Much more to learn as we sail.
SHC