"Lightning" solar electric sail hybrid concept

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Timothy, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Timothy
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 307
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 202
    Location: canada

    Timothy Senior Member

    This is my latest and last attempt at an affordable, easy to trailer without permit, solar electric sail hybrid, that doubles as an RV and can overnight six, day sail with eight or comfortably cruise for up to a month with two adults and two children, or not so comfortably two couples . It would be required to be transported in a 20' container as well as fit in a standard garage for storage. As the boat is a day sailor but intended for cruising it needs to be fast to expand the range of safe anchorages that are available within a day’s sail. It is also preferable that the righting moment increase with heel. Power. Torqeedo cruise . 3000wats solar panel array. Balanced uni rig (cuved canting telescoping mast offset in bearings) with 900 sq.' sail {pocket luff). Boat is shunted ( push button) but can be tacked mast vertical for short distances. Target weight 2700lbs. Displacement at 9" draft 5650lbs. Length 57'. Aka centerline to ama centerline 25'. Beam overall safety ama lifting foil down 40'. The plug in dingy is an 18 foot 125lb lug rigged sailing skiff with a Torqeedo cruise 2 outboard. It contains two of the four Torqeedo lithium ion batteries and should push the mother ship at six knots and plane when operated independently. With the cabin sole (counterweight for the hatch} lowered and the hinged hatch raised there is 6’2” headroom in the galley that doubles as the shower compartment and contains a composting head (an unusual and perhaps distasteful arrangement to some ). The beds will be standard double inflatable or foam mattresses. The cockpit converts to a covered salon with 4’6” sitting headroom. There is 6’4” standing headroom in the cockpit with the “Bimini” panel only raised. Some sort of movable ballast would be needed to keep the center of gravity behind the center of lift downwind. Initially I contemplated having a DSS type foil in the main hull (aka) that has its root slightly below the waterline and angled to leeward and upward to clear the surface at rest. The aka would slide forward the center of lift with it. The center of gravity would move back and the center of lateral resistance would remain the same. But in the end I decided it might be simpler to use the ama for fresh water storage and pump it end to end. Some kind of bladder system will need to be worked out so that the used fresh water can be replaced with salt. A garage would need to be fitted with an eight foot door to accommodate the boat on a four place aluminum snowmobile trailer. The wheels would have to be removed for the entire assembly to fit in a 20'container. A rather awkward slip size of 19’ 6” by 14’ would be required in a marina or an equivalent sized campsite if used as an RV. The weight target is far from precise as it was arrived at by simply adding the weights of all the components to a figure arrived at by multiplying the surface area of the various panels using a weight per sq. ' figure I derived using the scantlings of a 50' 20000lb catamaran. I hope that the hulls and beams can be engineered to fold and telescope, meet the weight targets and still fit within the parameters dictated by the size constraints imposed by the container transport and road restriction requirements. I am somewhat encouraged that it might be possible after watching a video of the making of Rob Denney’s' fantastic new proa the 50' "Solitary". If I decide to pursue this to a point that a boat could actually be built I think I will need a very good engineer and unfortunately good engineers need to be paid good money. I would like to take this concept as far as I can before I admit defeat and abandon the idea altogether, or take the next step and secure the services of a professional. Ideas ? Suggestions? Questions? Criticisms? Attached is an animation of the proa unfolding and the interior and cockpit collapsing.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. kerosene
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: finland

    kerosene Senior Member

    Can you edit your text into paragraphs please. That kind of formatting is unreadable.
     
  3. Timothy
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 307
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 202
    Location: canada

    Timothy Senior Member

    I would be happy to if I knew how. I have no formal education. I learnt to sail and what I know of boats and the sea during the 30 years I was a smuggler. The only computer programs I am familiar with are the bootleg modeling programs I taught myself to pass the time while serving a sentence in a federal penitentiary. Reading my own post I can see that you are right. It is unreadable. I t seems I will have to make the effort and learn to type and use a word processer.
     
  4. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    Looking at the design, I doubt it will float with the weight you calculated.
     
  5. tomas
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 281
    Likes: 16, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 147
    Location: California

    tomas Senior Member

    I hope that you don't mind my simple attempt to format your OP for readability:



    Timothy wrote:

    This is my latest and last attempt at an affordable, easy to trailer without permit, solar electric sail hybrid, that doubles as an RV and can overnight six, day sail with eight or comfortably cruise for up to a month with two adults and two children, or not so comfortably two couples.

    It would be required to be transported in a 20' container as well as fit in a standard garage for storage.

    As the boat is a day sailor but intended for cruising it needs to be fast to expand the range of safe anchorages that are available within a day’s sail.It is also preferable that the righting moment increase with heel.

    Power: 3000wats solar panel array
    Propulsion Torqeedo cruise.

    Sail Balanced uni rig (cuved canting telescoping mast offset in bearings) with 900 sq.' sail (pocket luff).

    Boat is shunted ( push button) but can be tacked mast vertical for short distances.

    Target weight 2700lbs.
    Displacement at 9" draft 5650lbs.
    Length 57'.
    Aka centerline to ama centerline 25'.
    Beam overall safety ama lifting foil down 40'.

    The plug in dingy is an 18 foot 125lb lug rigged sailing skiff with a Torqeedo cruise 2 outboard. It contains two of the four Torqeedo lithium ion batteries and should push the mother ship at six knots and plane when operated independently.

    With the cabin sole (counterweight for the hatch) lowered and the hinged hatch raised there is 6’2” headroom in the galley that doubles as the shower compartment and contains a composting head (an unusual and perhaps distasteful arrangement to some).

    The beds will be standard double inflatable or foam mattresses.

    The cockpit converts to a covered salon with 4’6” sitting headroom. There is 6’4” standing headroom in the cockpit with the “Bimini” panel only raised.

    Some sort of movable ballast would be needed to keep the center of gravity behind the center of lift downwind.

    Initially I contemplated having a DSS type foil in the main hull (aka) that has its root slightly below the waterline and angled to leeward and upward to clear the surface at rest. The aka would slide forward the center of lift with it. The center of gravity would move back and the center of lateral resistance would remain the same. But in the end I decided it might be simpler to use the ama for fresh water storage and pump it end to end.

    Some kind of bladder system will need to be worked out so that the used fresh water can be replaced with salt.

    A garage would need to be fitted with an eight foot door to accommodate the boat on a four place aluminum snowmobile trailer. The wheels would have to be removed for the entire assembly to fit in a 20'container. A rather awkward slip size of 19’ 6” by 14’ would be required in a marina or an equivalent sized campsite if used as an RV.

    The weight target is far from precise as it was arrived at by simply adding the weights of all the components to a figure arrived at by multiplying the surface area of the various panels using a weight per sq. ' figure I derived using the scantlings of a 50' 20000lb catamaran.

    I hope that the hulls and beams can be engineered to fold and telescope, meet the weight targets and still fit within the parameters dictated by the size constraints imposed by the container transport and road restriction requirements.

    I am somewhat encouraged that it might be possible after watching a video of the making of Rob Denney’s' fantastic new proa the 50' "Solitary". If I decide to pursue this to a point that a boat could actually be built I think I will need a very good engineer and unfortunately good engineers need to be paid good money. I would like to take this concept as far as I can before I admit defeat and abandon the idea altogether, or take the next step and secure the services of a professional.

    Ideas ? Suggestions? Questions? Criticisms?

    Attached is an animation of the proa unfolding and the interior and cockpit collapsing.
     
  6. tomas
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 281
    Likes: 16, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 147
    Location: California

    tomas Senior Member

    What is the waterline beam and draft of your main hull?

    Also, I'd like to see a quarter-speed version of the animated unfolding. I kept pausing it to try to see all the steps involved.

    You display creative and technical talent for someone who is self-taught.
    Keep working on your ideas.


    Here is someone who labored for 11 years on his dream:
    Video on CNN Mainsail
     
  7. Timothy
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 307
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 202
    Location: canada

    Timothy Senior Member

    Thank you Tomas for you efforts with the formatting. The main hull is 57' long by 2'3" wide and 2' 3" deep. The bottom is flat. Rocker is minimal. The idea is to maximize submersed volume at the cost of the performance gains that a soft chined U shaped sectioned hull presumably would provide. The total free board of the main hull could be increased if the boat was not transported on the trailer in the container . However it would no longer fit in a standard garage even if equipped with an 8' door. Another option would to use a dingy design with less free board. I felt that as the volumes, free board and length to beam ratios of the hulls ,as well as the weight distribution figures are similar to the traditional Mashalese flying proas, that as long as I could achieve around 200% volume in the main hull of maximum displacement, I should be all right. I don't know how to calculate how much dynamic lift the foil in the safety ama could provide and therefore how much of the total weight it will bear, but I was figuring on up to up to a 50% reduction in displacement at 15 knots. I am sorry I can ot post a quarter speed animation as I would go over the 10MB limit. I will try and post a slower less detailed version. Gonzo as I said I could be off significantly in my weight calculations but Similar sized proas have been built far lighter . To my surprise the the various components for the 3000 watt plus solar electric drive and power system portrayed in the illustrations, weigh less than a 10 hp 2 stroke , a 2000 watt Honda generator, house batteries, gas tank and fuel for a months cruising. It could also be the the program I use is wonky and that the volumes it gives me are wrong. But if I multiply those volumes by 64 I am pretty sure the boat will at least float if nothing else.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. tomas
    Joined: Nov 2012
    Posts: 281
    Likes: 16, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 147
    Location: California

    tomas Senior Member

    Timothy, have you already built Proa's before?

    Your design reminds me of another one on this forum that also folded with an animation of the folding design.
     

  9. Timothy
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 307
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 202
    Location: canada

    Timothy Senior Member

    The only boat I ever built was a gunter rigged Mirror dingy, and that was over 40 years ago. I had a lot of fun building her and more fun sailing her than any other boat I have ever owned. My current boat is an original aft cabin Freedom 40 that has been good to me the last 30 years but is not suitable for my new lifestyle. I decided I needed a new boat but there are none out there that meet my requirements The animation of the other proa you saw could be mine as early on I determined to go the solar electric route and that to even have a chance of success the boat itself would have to be purpose built. So I did a little research and discovered the Hawaiian sailing canoe, to my mind the perfect power sail hybrid. I then sat down with my computer and tried to figure out how to add the accommodation I required, the solar array I needed, and to make it fold to fit within the confines of a 20' container while still keeping the weight down, so that it could be towed by an SUV. I posted some renderings and a short animation of the concept asking for opinions and of course free advise. I wasn't totally discouraged by the lack of response and I did receive one or two positive comments so I went a little further and built a scale model. The model suggested to me that the folding mechanism might work but that the narrow spacing of the beams meant that there would be excessive wracking making the between beam accommodation unworkable. Recently I found out about some reasonably priced high efficiency flexible light weight solar panels and was inspired to go back to the drawing board. I believe I have fixed some of the deficiencies of the original design attempt. If nothing else I have learnt some interesting stuff while researching this project. Only today I read that "Terror" and "Erebus" Franklin's ships on his ill fated voyage to find the North West Passage relied on 25 hp and 20 hp locomotive steam engines that each weighed one and a half tons and burned two tons of coal a day to push trough the ice. A 3000 watt solar array with an 8hp electric engine to propel two tons now sounds like overkill.
     
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