Liftable propulsion sistem !!??

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by szakal666, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,251
    Likes: 172, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Russian 2 stroke, oh no! forget it, I have seen that on the Volga. Heavy blue smoke and noisy, probably not reliable. As you're mechanic with access to a shop is not problem to make the FAO transmission. As you have seen in the document you have enough details plans for making it, and it's simple with common materials, and all the needed tips. It's the purpose of such document!

    You have to find a small engine, better diesel but gas would be convenient also with a lot of precautions. That won't be a big problem for you. On river have a bit extrapower for going against current or the boat will be too slow.

    A air cooled engine from a generator or a water pump should be the simplest, but will a very cautious approach about safety. Make a bigger silencer (it may come from a car) with protection against heat and fire. Noise is the worst thing.

    A monocylinder 250cc 4 stroke motorcycle engine coming from a wreck would work also being limited to 8 to 12 horses. The advantage of a motorcycle engine is you have the safe enclosed alternator and eventual starter. You have a clutch and neutral, and you can choice one of the gears to get the needed demultiplication (do not try to use the gear box while going on, you'll break it). The mortorcycle carbs have always a flood pipe you direct outside of the hull...You are mecanician...so imagine the blower for cooling the engine.

    A small alternator (with screens spark arrestors) driven by the engine will charge a battery, very useful to have light in night. A gas engine needs a lot of aeration because of the fumes of gas (gas fumes are heavier than air and stay in the bilge of the boat), you can fit light plastic blades on the lower pulley to have a blower for the bilge, but before starting the engine you have to aerate "manually" the bilge.

    Gas tank must be separated from the engine. The best is to use a outboard tank, it's tough and made for gas. Use only reinforced gas tubes for outboards.

    Gas engines exhaust may be made with brazed copper pipes. It withstands very well.

    An air cooled engine with dry escape needs extra precautions. Think well over the installation. To have 2 extinctors (one in front, one close to the engine) aboard is mandatory, never use water to extinguish a gas fire.

    Do not forget that gas engines are very dangerous on boats!!!! Use your common sense, imagine the worst situations and their remedy (for example if the carb floods where does go the gas?)

    A diesel engine is more sure than a gas one, but precautions are mandatory. The little problem there is no reverse in the primitive version of the FAO transmission.

    Thinking a bit more, the 8.5 m is big enough to receive a 600 to 1000 cc small car engine, derated to 12 to 18 HP. Adding weight in the bilge adds to stability but you have to think over the whole installation and it becomes fairly complicated.

    If you plan to make a cabin make it very light in 3 and 6mm plywood, or simpler a structure in alu or steel tubes for a cloth (like the vinyl cloth for trailers) roof that becomes a tent for the night, after all a such boat is for the nice days not the winter.

    These FAO boats are designed to stay open, they are narrow and the weight and windage of a cabin may give you problems, probably the boat will become a roller and the boat may be flipped over by a gust of wind. A cabin will be also very ugly as the hull is low. Last, a cabin will use a lot of material and will be expensive.

    Keep the boat as light and as simple as possible. Center of gravity must stay low or you'll have a dangerous boat.

    Never forget the life jackets also. River cool water in spring kills in a few minutes by hypothermia the best swimmer...
     
  2. szakal666
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Kisvarda, Hungary

    szakal666 Junior Member

    Ilan,
    you are thinkin really on everything. Excuse me please for my short answers, but it is not easy for me to write in english.
    I want to make a steam boat. So i didn't think on gasolin or diesel engine.
    i'm an old biker, here are no 4 stroke motorcicle wrecks. litle 2 stroke maybe (up to 125cm3). For a steam engine i must modify the FAO drive. In the FAO plans i see that the beam can be icreased with 20%, that results a 2.2m moulded beam . It's more than enough for me. if i laminate The exterior, what kind of materials will i use for the interior conservation of the plywood? Try to explain the type or the compozition of the paints and grounds not the name.
    For life jackets and other equipment are a lot of very strictly lows. The equipment is depending from the lengt of the boat and the number of officially trasportable persons.
    my outboards are modified,the russians made them for 76 octane gasoline.I increased the compression for 91 oct. and they become new carbs.
    What did you make by the Volga?
    Attila
     
  3. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,251
    Likes: 172, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Hi Attila,

    My job was naval engineer (I'm retired now), and a naval engineer has to think about all even the toilets...I was in Russia for tourism invited by russian colleagues and I saw very interesting old foiler ferries, a fast patrol boat and a very efficient 11m foiler boat displacing fully loaded 5 metric tons (about 40 knots with only 250 HP).

    You have no experience of boatbuilding and you have not enough knowledge on naval designof small boats. For a first one do not do any modification and stay stuck faithfully to the plans, you have already enough work learning boat carpentry and making your boat (at first idea about 6 to 700 hours of work)

    If you begin to fool with mods, you'll lose a lot of time, work and money to have very disapointing results which go generally to the garbage.

    I won't answer to details about wood protection etc... Ask infos to the peinture fabricants. Read the many books on plywood boat building (like http://books.boatdesign.net/bbwr/bo...horSearch&input_string=Glenn L Witt&locale=us

    ) Surf the internet sites ( for example http://www.glen-l.com/methods/methdpw.html) Go to see any boat builder even of small rowboats and work with him during holidays. Make a 1/10 scale model of the boat, you'll learn a lot. The first part of your project is simply learning on small boats.

    About steam engines I found some useful links;

    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/goebel43.html
    http://www.casco.net/~carlich/
    http://travel.howstuffworks.com/steam3.htm
    http://www.steamboat.org.uk/
    http://www.tinypower.com/marine_engines.htm

    You'll see that small steam engines are bulky, heavy and very expensive, using a lot of combustible (big steam turbines are very efficient but it's another world). I've made a fast (maybe inaccurate) calculation and a 10 HP weights something like 400 to 600 kg complete and costs something between 6 to 14000 US dollars....that puts a new 10 HP Honda outboard very cheap.
    You have to buy the foundries in the US, machine them, assemble etc That means at least 1000 hours of work. The fabrication of the boiler is delicate: you have something full of hot water and steam ready to explode.

    It's a very difficult project. I'm not sure that FAO hull will be situable and the FAO transmission won't work with a steam engine. The steam tubing coming from the boiler is rigid so you can't swing the engine with the transmission.

    In conclusion stay with the FAO transmission and a small engine, and you have realist project that you'll be able to complete.
     
  4. szakal666
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 14
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Kisvarda, Hungary

    szakal666 Junior Member

    hi Tom, what was the problem with the posting?
     
  5. tom kane
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 1,767
    Likes: 47, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 389
    Location: Hamilton.New Zealand.

    tom kane Senior Member

    Adding the attachments,the drawing of the patent procedure I have been following must be incorrect.I will check it out.
     
  6. robrohdeszudy
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Madison, WI

    robrohdeszudy Junior Member

    Here's the FAO article link

    http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/FIELD/006/AD531E/AD531E00.HTM

    Been thinking of the same thing myself. Mostly because I prefer the sedate chug-chug of a low-rpm inboard to the roar of an outboard, but I also need shoal draft.

    Let me know if you get something built!
    --Rob
     
  7. tom kane
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 1,767
    Likes: 47, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 389
    Location: Hamilton.New Zealand.

    tom kane Senior Member

    liftable propulsion system

    I have been using a more sophisticated version since 1950 and it does all things other systems can not do.Recent post CAM.A.Propulsion in Propulsion
    section is example.Also see similar units in my photo album.Tried all others and find liftable propulsion system most versatile.Also can be built diy or build a very sophisticated unit.Cheap or very expensive.This system can be built in flat bottom and work well,or deep v hulls.Many more advantages.
     
  8. tom kane
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 1,767
    Likes: 47, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 389
    Location: Hamilton.New Zealand.

    tom kane Senior Member

    liftable propulsion system

    This is an old photo of early pivotal drive,built for evuation and patent purposes.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. robrohdeszudy
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 18
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Madison, WI

    robrohdeszudy Junior Member

    not quite?

    Hey there. Nice looking system, that CAM A. Looks like it's built for high speed planing, though, and I'm after a simple, cheap displacement speed thing. Do I misunderstand? What makes this system different from the FAO system?
    Thanks, --ROB
     

  10. tom kane
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 1,767
    Likes: 47, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 389
    Location: Hamilton.New Zealand.

    tom kane Senior Member

    Hi Rob.The CAM.A.PROPULSION pivotal drive can be used on big hydroplane with big power or in a flat bottom dory,or a displacement craft to eliminate the need for deadwood,propeller pockets ect.,Easy trailering comes from the drive pivoting level with the keel if needed.It is as simple as you can get,if that is what you want.A very simple drive train using conventional components.The FAO system pivots the motor where pivotal drive is all mechanical.Any handyman can build a simple mode to suit their purpose.If you e-mail me your address I can send you a copy of the very simple patent application diagram.arthurkane2002@webnet .co.nz
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.