Lifelong dream plans L.F. Herreshoff/Cherubini44 lines

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by freeh612, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. motorbike
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    motorbike Senior Member

    To the regular contributors, give yourself credit for the patience on display. This is the umpteenth thread where a guy wants to build a boat worth 7 figures for next nothing by thinking they can do it themselves, moreover the OP wants the design for free.

    To build a boat like this in a reasonable time frame you need to tell us your budget. Is it at least 500,000? if not then get a smaller boat or buy one. You will need to get the hull and decks delivered or a competent boatbuilder to help from day one. A friend purchased a bargain 55ft hull and deck along with spars motor, keel and a lot of gear for 80k but it still took 5 years and 500 more to finish including 2 years of help from a full time builder and a fairing crew, various specialists etc. In short this is a pipe dream unless you have the bucks to play.
     
  2. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    These days I'm an instructor at the North West School of Wooden Boat Building where we put together everything from 10' flat bottom skiffs to a recent epoxy/wood 60' 'daysailer' using techniques that range from basic lapstrake to quite modern cold molded construction.
    I see no reason the C44 lines could not be built cheaply plank-on-frame or more durably in cold molded laminates over strip-plank.
     
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    For a professional or very experienced amateur crew, carvel is fast and economical, not so much for a novice. Strip plank would be the novice friendly method.
     
  4. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    Well folks like the Gougeon bros were not "professionals" when they started and built quite a few really cool boats. That said, they rapidly became pros in the process.

    The thing about the Cherubini (and I've had a hardon for the 48 for decades) is both the hull shape, but also the "fit and finish".

    Now if all you look at are the pure materials costs, you figure about $20k each of resin and glass, and additional $40k for the wood. So the materials costs of the hull are probably in the $80k ballpark. Rigging is going to be another $30k-$50k and fitout about $30k.

    so assuming you were building something that had solid plans and a builder's guide, and paying yourself nothing, you could probably build a 44 for $150k in materials.

    So then the assumption is that the rest is labor and profit. Well it is and isn't. There are OpEx costs associated with the manufacturing such as waste disposal (Paul Bieker once made the offhand comment that for every 1# of boat you generate roughly 1# of waste and double that if you are going high tech) So that's 30k# of waste to dispose of, most of which cannot go in your standard construction cycle stream since it has been contaminated in one way or another with some fairly toxic chems. So that's a minimum of $15k in disposal costs

    And you need a facility in which to build the boat (until you get the deck on and sealed you will do a lot of damage if the boat is outside). Now you might already have a barn to work in- wihich is great, but I not, that structure is going to cost you $10k min. to put up since you will want it to include your tools and a weather protected working space. So we are up to $175k in direct costs

    And you will need to heat the space to some extent or you will only be able to work during part of the year. So figure over the life of the project probably $5k in heating and lighting costs.

    Then there is equipment rental for some of the heavy machinery you need to do this work, that's going to probably be $5k--$10k over the life of the project.

    so now we are at $200k of direct costs. So now if we look at he selling price of around $450k, that leaves $250k on the table. Figure 10% is risk ROI so that's $200k.

    And that means that with a "loaded cost" of labor at around $40/hr (pay $20 on avg, plus bennies etc). you have about 5,000 man hours of labor to put in.

    As a single builder its more since some things you are going to do will require extra prep work, and also since you are working in starts and stops you aren't as efficient, So figure 7k hours. Now that would be a 3.5 yr project if you were working a normal work week on it.

    Figure 16hrs per weekend 3 weekends out of 4 for 600 weekend hrs/yr.
    Plus say 1 week per year of vacation time at 500 hrs,

    This is now a 7 year project assuming no rework and buildable plans in hand. So its closer to 8-10 yrs.

    Doable, particularly with the kind of persistence the OP seems to have.



    but this is why I asked the question on his priorities. How old will his kids be in 8 years? Will they have any interest in learning to sail with Dad? How much time of their "growing up" will he have missed by spending 3 out of every 4 weekends buried inside the boat?
     
  5. motorbike
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    motorbike Senior Member

    BB you're on the right track, but you're probably light on the figures. 30k for a fit out, no way Jose! Add in basic electronics, an autohelm, an engine, tankage, etc etc and your 150 is very, very optimistic. Add another 100 minimum if not 150 and you're about right. What about holding costs? The OP will need professional help at some stage and 3 out of 4 weekends? There simply wont be a wife or family to share the dream!

    Yes it can be done, but the ideal setup is a shed in the backyard where you can walk to and keep the momentum every day. To build a high quality 44ft yacht it is simply not possible to do it cheaper that buying in today's market.

    If he purchased today a high quality 44ft cruiser, he would get change out of 200 all day long @ 4% interest thats 8k interest only, add in some principal and your about 200 per week and sailing. Running costs which you have regardless are on top. OR you could work you butt off for 10 years, lose your family and then go sailing only to discover that every dollar you put in is now worth about 30 cents.

    No brainer really, sure build if you have a passion for it, but dont even think for a moment that it makes economic sense or you can build cheaper than you can buy.
     
  6. nzboy
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    nzboy Senior Member

    My father had many boats in his lifetime ,the cheapest being a 30ft launch that had a trailer. Had a stroll around a childhood marina when on vacation on new years day, beautiful weather ( summer) and hardly a berth free)So this divides into a number of groups. 1) boatbuilders 2)boat maintainers 3) sailors 4) commercials . To be a boatbuilder you need a big shed, my shed cost $100,000 plus you need some where to put it and 10k a year to build ( ideally not urban) .Boat maintainers spend the same money to maintain their boats with marina fees .Sailors buy a boat, sail and then buy a another one when its stuffed( same costs .So if you buy a boat, buy one off a retired maintainer. Our poster seems to want to get on the water. So 10-15k a year would get him there if he simply purchased and sailed now and maybe build when kids have grown up (and maybe then he has a different dream) The moral is are you a boat builder ,marina maintainer or sailor ? I love boat forums. Builders, designers ,maintainers. The sailors are probably on another voyage or forum
     
  7. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    Well on most new boats there are no electronics nor autohelm in the "sailaway" price. So the fitout goes to cover mostly engine and water systems. Its not clear this guy would need pro help. other than perhaps for launching.

    And there are wives that are cool with the husband just building. But the kids will be grown by the time the boat is ready to splash.

    Now if he wants a cruiser - and to do some work, I'd recommend an older Gulfstar 44., no its no Cherubini, but its a good boat, the interior is probably beat, so if he bought it and spent two years fixing the interior, then he'd have taught his kids about building stuff on boats. And then they would have 3-5 years of sailing and trade up

    NZBoy's analysis is spot on http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/Gulfstar-44-Sloop-2657659/Wilmington/CA/United-States
     
  8. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    On what planet could an amateur build anything even close to a Cherubini in 5k hours? Multiply that by 10 if you are starting from scratch. A very rudimentary 30 ft plywood stitch and glue cruiser without any compound curves would take a dedicated amateur 5k hours. Just the interior joinery on the Cherubini would take him twice that time.
     
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  9. JRD
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    JRD Senior Member

    The OP seems to have run out of persistence about two weeks ago, his last post was on 10 Jan. Or maybe he's already out building his new shed.

    Without getting into debates of this being a 5,000 hour or 50,000 hour job, I agree with your point. The right person with 100% grit and determination (along with patient wife, a large shed and plenty of funds) might be able to get through something like this.
    But there are not many who can deliver all of the above year upon year.

    I read a post by PAR a couple of years ago talking about getting over the mental barrier of completing each stage of a build, knowing full well the last big milestone was two years ago.
    I think that funding is really the biggest hurdle for most ambitions amateur builds. Its hard to work efficiently when you are always waiting for a part you cant yet afford, or doing a job in small parts by yourself when two men could handle lifting and fitting jobs several times faster. Id bet its a big part of the reason that five year builds always turn into ten year builds
     
  10. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    DGreenwood - a cold molded 44'er hull build isn't a lot more complicated or time consuming than a 30' plywood stitch and glue. Stitch and glue only really is a speed advantage in smaller and simpler shapes (I can knock an Ama out for a small stupid cat in a weekend and most of the time is spent waiting for the glue to dry). On a 44'er I'd do either strip planked core over ring frames or cold molding over ring frames. And stapling long strips is only marginally slower than stitch and glue.

    Note also my 5k factor was for a production facility I added a 50% multiplier for solo worker. It could be double that.
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Are you kidding? A 44' build is literally twice the boat of a 30'er Baltic. Everything about the 44' build will be bigger, more complex and more costly, compared to a 30' yacht.
     
  12. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    In 1993 Cherubini agreed to allow the construction of a cold-molded 44 by Jespersen Boatbuilding in Sidney BC. The result is called Spitfire. They sent the fiberglass drawings but Russ Hohmann ended up re-drawing her for laminated wood construction. In an article he wrote for WoodenBoat (#136) Russ claimed the as-built laminated hull was 1000 pounds lighter than the fiberglass Cherubini version. They added 1000 pounds of lead to the ballast, and also used carbon masts, thus improving her sail-carrying power considerably. Spitfire's hull was planked with 6 layers, 5 diagonal 3/16" red cedar with one 3/8" Mahogany (I assume fore and aft) and 6oz glass sheathing. No frames in the traditional sense, just bulkheads and joinery.

    She was about 13 months under construction, 4-5 man crew, so 12-13000 man hours....about right (or a bit low) for this quality level.

    Spitfire1.jpg

    Spitfire2.jpg

    Spitfire3.jpg
     
  13. DGreenwood
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    DGreenwood Senior Member

    Yeah right! Lets see the pictures of the interior and the systems list. 12 to 13k hours is ridiculous. Especially for cold molded boats. I can see those hours for the hull alone but I can't see building a from scratch Cherubini level finish in that time.
     
  14. Baltic Bandit

    Baltic Bandit Previous Member

    Well again, this is building to a Cherubini fit and finish quality. but Okk I'm off in my guestimate.
     

  15. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Don't take my word for it, call Eric Jespersen and ask him, 250-656-2581

    The C44 is a 28,000 pound boat, 2.3 pounds per hour is fairly slow. The Cherubini chapter in The World's Best Sailboats reports that a 44 takes "about 10,000 man hours to complete." It has a raised panel overlay on the bulkheads and solid wood dovetailed drawers with beveled fronts.

    Spitfire has none of that, her interior is simple, but nicely done. By way of comparison I have a cold-molded Mobjack (44') beautify built by amateurs in New Zealand in 14,000 man hours. And another nicely done cold-molded Bounty also built in NZ by a small yard in 24,000 m/h, but that's a 50,000 pound boat.

    Here's Spitfire

    Spitfire4.jpg
     
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