Lateen Rigged Cruiser

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by flathead65, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. flathead65
    Joined: Apr 2014
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    flathead65 Junior Member

    I'm looking for the simplest sail rig possible for my Paceship PY23. I am not concerned with performance in the least. I just want a simple and quick to set up,fun rig.It occurred to me that the Lateen rig on the Sunfish is about as simple as it gets.
    That said, I looked at the Genoa in the illustration of the boat and thought "I could use it as a Lateen sail". The luff could be attached to the yard at a 45-50 degree angle, the leech could become the foot and the foot the leech. The mast position could remain the same with approximately a 12ft wooden mast with only 2 side stays. I would fabricate a beefed up bracket and hinge it up by hand as it would be light and very easy. Primary use is lake sailing on calm days. I'm pretty sure this has never been done ( and for good reason) and I would like to apologize to the yachting community in advance for even suggesting it, but if there is someone on this site with the knowledge to make the necessary calculations to help me actually make this work let me know. Please feel free to pm if you want to avoid having any association with this publicly. I completely understand. Thanks http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=340
     
  2. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    If you turn an existing jib through 90 degrees all the existing shape will be in the wrong place, so the benefits are limited.

    But what's the problem that you are aiming to solve? It feels as if you will end up cluttering your boat up with great big spars on deck that will be a damn nuisance when not actually sailing. Whatever the disadvantages of the original rig, at least you haven't got spars all over the place when the sail is down.

    Arguably a lug sail is easier and cheaper since there are only two spars, not 3, and they are shorter. Always seems to me the lateen is actually quite a lot of complication for what you end up with, which is my guess as to why they aren't common
     
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I disagree about spars being all over the place on the lanteen. They can be stored aloft, just like any other rig. The problem with the PY-23 is the amount of area you'll need in one sail. 225 sq. ft. is a huge single sail.

    [​IMG]

    The 180 genoe could be set on a spar, but the mast would have to move considerably forward, probably pretty close to the very forward end of the cabin roof. Because of the aspect ratio of this genoe, the mast will not be as short as it could be, had the rig been designed as a typically proportioned lanteen, though it would still be considerably shorter. Because of this, the yards would be longer than the boat, if stowed on deck.

    The real problem here is the amount of area needed and the use of the existing sails. Maybe a ketch or cat ketch is a better option. A lug is an option, though again a bigass sail it'll be. A gaff cat is an option as well, though this would look odd as sin on this style of boat, as would the lug.
     
  4. flathead65
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    flathead65 Junior Member

    I messed around with the Genoa on scaled copies I have of the boat. I left the mast base where it was on the cabin top and raked the mast forward 5 degrees. No matter what I do with the Genoa it looks odd with a low (40 degree ) yard angle. Sure would be unique though. The mast and spar could be made of laminated spruce lumber and done on the cheap. The plan for the boat eventually is junk rig. This is just a distraction. I do like the "flying lateen" setup. That is clever.
     
  5. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    Think I'd go straight for the Junk rig rather than try the Lateen. However, either way aren't you going to have challenges with supporting the mast if unstayed, or with how to stay it if you have a stayed rig?

    Concur with Par about sail size, especially as the quoted sail area in the spec sheet appears to me to be triangles only, omitting the overlap of the big genoa, assuming you have that now. You may need to take a considerable hit on sail area.

    Maybe you need to think about whether this boat is an appropriate basis for your desired end result, or whether you'd be better off selling and getting something fundamentally closer to your needs?
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Headsail area is calculated with the fore triangle dimensions, not the actual sail dimensions. Leaning the mast forward will present difficult staying base issues to say the least.

    I agree in that is isn't the best platform to consider making these changes on. This is pretty simple rig (single spreader, double backs, masthead sloop) to sail. These types of changes, are best done on a considerably smaller boat, say 18' or less.
     
  7. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    A friend of mine sailed one of those down the intercoastal waterway when he was young. Nice boat.
    He sails Glooscap II now, a Tahiti Ketch, and keeps her in fine shape.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. flathead65
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    flathead65 Junior Member

    Agreed. The occasional tangent keeps me interested. The thing I don't like about the Bermuda rig is stepping the mast and the hour spent in the parking lot on the front and back end of any outing.Not real interested in going forward underway either. The waters cold up here.
     
  9. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    Aha. I see where you are coming from now. Have you looked into a tabernacle to make it easier to raise and lower the mast? You might be able to get it down to 15 minutes. I can see with that boat it the mast would hang off the back end, so it would still be a two step process to first set it into the tabernacle and then to raise it. Tabernacles work better with a larger mainsail and a smaller foretriangle. It is a very tall mast, and the big genoa means it has to be a rather heavy mast.

    Maybe a Gunter Rig:
    Then you could have a shorter mast and put it on a tabernacle.
    You would need to get rid of the backstay and have swept back spreaders.
    You would also need a shorter jib, and done properly I would step the mast forward some, lengthen the boom.

    This would also be a more versatile rig, with a larger main and smaller jib. Much easier than a small Main and 180% Genoa.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    Anything you do would be relatively expensive though, other than staying with the existing rig and using a tabernacle to make raising and lowering easier, albeit in a two step process.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    I have done a substantial amount of noodling on how to make a good simple easy to deploy sail rig -primarily for canoes and kayaks but I think you will see it scales perfectly to your boat. I have a design for a lanteen rig that folds like an umbrella, but it doesn't scale well -too much force to deploy in wind and the spars are too big and heavy when not deployed. What wins out is one big roller furling genoa and the challenge is the long mast. The only problem is putting up the mast and that is only because it is not designed to hinge. What I find is that a fairly light inverted V is capable of the loads because compression is reduced due to the larger included angle. These spars are so light and simple that they can be telescoping or assembled. In comparison a 'simple' unstayed mast is a heavy awkward beast even if it is slightly shorter.

    The negatives to this rig are very small and I am pretty sure that the ease of deployment would result in far more hours sailing.
     
  12. flathead65
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    flathead65 Junior Member

    I was looking at some very old illustrations of sail rigs last night and when I came across it today I stumbled onto the sliding gunter rig. This may be the solution.
     
  13. Jamie Kennedy
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    Sounds good. The mirror dinghy is a great example, on a smaller scale.
     
  14. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    You've still got a problem with supporting the rig. The original rig appears to have in line shrouds and backstay. You can't have a backstay with a sliding gunter rig, so you have to engineer in new locations for the shrouds. OK, its not the biggest job in the world, but its non trivial because of the strength required.
     

  15. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

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