Last voyage for Costa Concordia cruise ship

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by daiquiri, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    To keep things in perspective you probably have to compare the sea miles being done by cruise ships in aggregate today, probably a lot more than decades ago, which increases the chances of an 'incident'. Increased exponentially by weekend-warrior style seamanship in this particular instance, seemingly.
     
  2. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    " The governing body that produces international regulations for the maritime industry is International Maritime Organization (IMO). The IMO produced the International Safety Management (ISM) Code, in part, to address human factors in accidents. The ISM code has been mandatory for passenger vessels since July 1, 1998. We continue to see disasters, in part, due to inadequate implementation and enforcement of the ISM Code. The tools are already in place to prevent the next disaster. The question is, are we willing to do the work to do it right? "

    Are RINA standards and IMO, ISM the same ?
     
  3. Gian Milan

    Gian Milan Previous Member

    are similar, although the RINA has lost much of its international prestige.
     
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  4. nettersheim
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    nettersheim Consultant

    As a contribution to this very interesting thread, I would like to say :

    1) passenger vessels are built under two sets of international rules (SOLAS / IMO) + classification societies rules (Rina, Lloyds, DNV, BV, ABS, ...)
    2) global safety is under scope of international rules especially stability (IMO) and structure is under scope of classification rules

    Up to 01/01/2009, in terms of damage stability vessels were built under deterministic rules ("SOLAS 90" for passenger vessels). After this date vessels have been built under probabilistic rules ("SOLAS 2009"). The reason to change the set of rules is that a lot of people thought that the previous rules was not anymore efficient. Especially for large passenger vessels... Damage stability to which I refer here is the stability AFTER something has happened (mainly a collision).

    COSTA CONCORDIA has been built under the "old" set of rules in terms of damage stability (deterministic based). She is one of the last large passenger vessel to have been built under this type of rules.

    Nobody knows really imo if the new rules (probabilistic damage stability) are better. On the paper may be, especially for large passenger vessels. The new rules are giving more flexibility to ship builders (they may arrange the watertight compartments in more freely way than before). They have been developped with IMO instruction to keep the safety level more or less equal compared to previous deterministic rules, but with the aim to skip the most evident drawbacks in the old rules.

    The matter is very complex.

    Francois-Xavier Nettersheim
    (holding a captain's certificate, and involved in large passenger ferry vessels projects)
     
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  5. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    after the ship leaves the dock its cowboy land....

    How often has an aircraft not taken off as the crew are or will be over time?

    has that ever happened in the shipping industry..NO

    Why do Offshore vessels have a nice lounges on the bridge..so the crew can get a few minutes of sleep when working 24hrs straight
    Ship crew are still canon fodder
    you can always get a cheaper captain for a ship, cant really do that for an aircraft
    Checking a 747 captains time, easy, checking a 3rd world ship captain with his 3rd world ticket with his time on a ship that doesnt exist..impossible
     
  6. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    and THETIS ? Was Concordia inspected ?
     
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  7. Gian Milan

    Gian Milan Previous Member

    The matter is very complex....
    In my opinion matter is very simple.
    If it's clear that certain ships are dangerous, should be removed from sailing and the problem is solved.
    Much expensive, but not as a real disaster.
     
  8. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    The IMO has nowhere to go except the class organisations
    these are the guys that make all their money from being chosen by a ship owner to tell them the ship needs to be built as they say..well how about.....
    I am paying you so you certify what I am building or I will find another classification society that will.
    And the long term business model along with the collusion of the ship yards is we need the build ships that will need scrapping in 6 years.

    How would you like to fly in aircraft that were based on this system
     
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  9. Jolly Amaranto
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    Jolly Amaranto Junior Member

    I have also decided to join this forum after lurking for a time in order to get a different perspective than that which is floated about by the media. Thanks for your informative discussions.

    I think the bottom line is still, that no matter how "safe" something is engineered to be, you will always have the human factor involved in how it is used. The cruise ship industry as a whole, has a very good safety record. Most companies do not allow their captains to be so cavalier and sling their floating hotels about with such disregard of safety. This industry is a business after all finding a way to make a profit. Costa, if they survive, will surely change their practices and reign in their rogue hot rodders to stay in business. I am sure other companies will reexamine their procedures also.

    The design of cruise ships has evolved quite rapidly in the past decades to exploit the market as best as they can and make a profit. Some "occupy" folks would call it greed but that is what has always driven mankind to develop new technology and business. However, there must be some control. I believe the fallout from this incident will improve the industry.

    I found this video on the web. It shows a little bit of how a modern cruise ship is built.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DodFxdOGJZ8
     
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  10. nettersheim
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    nettersheim Consultant

    Powerabout, may be you have definitely summarized things...

    The classification societies are "ruling" everything including IMO you are right. In fact the incestuous relationship with shipbuilders iand/or owners is terrible...

    In the bulk carrier area this scandalous situation has costed 1500 seamen lives between the 1985 and 2005. Never forget these poor guys.

    Francois-Xavier Nettersheim
     
  11. Gian Milan

    Gian Milan Previous Member

    But please!
    Look at lifeboats: are lowered as in theMiddle Ages!
    On boats 70 meters high, should be put on the top deck, with the possibility of lowering port or starboard.
    And with two ropes beggars, but with rack rails systems which take perpendicular to the ship, for example.

    Even an idiot would understand that for a ship 70 meters hight is no possible to lowering from the 4 deck a lifeboat when ship is inclined!
    And a ship sinking, is always inclined.

    The commander of the boat can also be Captain America, but lifeboats do not land in water!!!
     
  12. nettersheim
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    nettersheim Consultant

    According to the SOLAS rules (International rules from IMO), life-boats on passenger vessels should not e installed at more than 15 meters from the lowest waterline. This rule is a very good one and is coming from experience. It is easier to lower life-boat from such level.

    SOLAS rules are also telling that passenger vessel should not heel over a certain limit in damage condition, precisely due to the evacuation problem. On the other hand the SOLAS rules stipulate that lowering of life-boats should be possible with 20° of list.

    The problem with the rules is the hypothesis regarding damage. Very complex matter as already mentioned. See other posts here and on the "stability" forum.

    Something has not worked here (appart of the human factors and company procedures). Design ? Building ? Rules ?

    Francois-Xavier Nettersheim
     
  13. sal's Dad
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    sal's Dad Atkin/Bolger fan

    Captain Schettino greatest dis-service was NOT running the ship into an island; was NOT flubbing the evacuation process.

    By appearing (after the incident was effectively over) ludicrously bumbling and cowardly, he has allowed public discussion to be diverted -- from the inherent risks of very large ships, and the underlying management problems in the industry. He is such an easy target for the press, and focal point for public outrage.

    Carnival will pay a steep price for this incident, but will likely escape a fundamental review of its business model and policies. With a few minor modifications, these floating resorts will continue to flourish - they provide the vacation experience Americans and Europeans crave, at a cost point that reflects Carnival's third-world labor costs and regulatory environment.

    No doubt Micky Arison (Carnival's CEO) is thanking his stars for that "vada a bordo cazzo" tape!
     
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  14. nettersheim
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    nettersheim Consultant

    Definitively true...
     

  15. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Agree. I have seen the video of the proof that 100% of the passengers can evacuate the aircraft via inflatable slides, in the required number of minutes, lights out, emergency situation. It was done with one suffering a broken bone but succesful nevertheless.
     
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