Large sharpie for the Adriatic

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Igor, Jul 1, 2022.

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  1. Boat Design Net Moderator
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    Boat Design Net Moderator Moderator

    Probably a language difference, but have removed the reported comment.
     
  2. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    L F Herreshoff wasn't a fan of the Munro sharpies; somewhere in his letters to his father on the Mystic Seaport museum site is a comment that the Munro boats only looked good when compared to the very inferior boats around Florida at that time. I'm a bit of a sharpie fan so I'm not saying LFH was correct but it's always interesting to see the other side.

    I just don't understand the low freeboard of the Reuhl boats, I have to admit. The fact that one could be sailed to the Bahamas in settled weather doesn't seem to say much when you can sail a windsurfer or a Laser across places like Bass Strait, while boats like Farr Mumm 30s (often abused by traditionalists) race across Bass Strait.

    Some of the claims about sharpie performance appear to be rather exaggerated considering that even later Vee bottom sharpies don't do particularly well (or particularly badly) as racing boats.
     
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  3. Igor
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    Igor Junior Member

    Low freeboard in boats like North Carolina sharpie could be a stability factor keeping the centre of gravity low and in conjunction with wide flat bottom adding a lot of heeling resistance for more power to punch through waves.
    Regarding the performance of North Carolina sharpie the sa/d ratio does not look too shabby, it could be fun fast boat with just two strings to pull.

    As you said, one could paddle a kayak or sail a windsurfer across the Bass strait without mishap, on the other side the Farr yacht you have mentioned lost its bulb and turtled two weeks ago in Australia.
     
  4. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Yes, the C of G is dropped, but you lose a lot of space and in a chop or swell you'd surely take a fair few waves over the lee rail, which adds a lot of drag as well as kicking up unpleasant spray. My own fairly light (2000kg) 28' hard chine boat has a lot more freeboard and that wasn't too much.

    The Parker 36 has a heavier hull, deck, interior and rig weight than my 36'er and the only reason it's lighter is because it's got less ballast, situated far higher up, and the sail area is a fraction of the size. It's hard to see that being "fast", by which I mean faster than the average boat of its LOA.

    Looking at similar boats one can see that the Norwalk Island Sharpies, while very nice boats, have PHRF ratings that certainly aren't particularly fast.

    The Farr I was referring to was the former Mumm 30. The boat that lost its keel was a different Farr design.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2022
  5. Igor
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    Igor Junior Member

    I see..
    I really like the looks of that low slung sheer but I can see the risks involved. A breaker or two on the beam could flood the cockpit and capsize or sink the boat before the scuppers do their job.
    Yesterday I was out in 6-8ft chop in my trusty little bilge keeler, was glad it has got the freeboard of an RV :)

    After that I have been reading about the Egret everything I could possibly find, probably it is the only old school sharpie that could cope with our conditions.
    The woodenboat version has too much rocker and the bad ballast distribution caused weather helm and poor light wind performance.
    Parker's version has got flatter run and a bit more sail area, especially with added jib.
    It also motors very well with reported speed of 8-9 knots with 8hp four stroke Yamaha. That is a major plus during the summer months as dead calms can last for days.
     
  6. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    That eight to nine knots with an 8 hp sounds extremely "optimistic". My 2t 28' hard chine boat does about 6 with a 9.8 and it's a clean-lined racer/cruiser that's rated at about 11% faster than a Norwalk Island of similar length.

    What 28 foot yacht can reach about 25% over hull speed with an 8hp? Is a 28'er with an 8hp really going to motor about 20% faster than a 36 foot cruiser/racer with a 20hp diesel and a similar or lower displacement to length ratio?

    I know that motoring speeds don't directly equate to sailing speed, but to reach that sort of figure the Parker 28 would have to be close to the fastest 28'er mono in the entire world in terms of hull drag. Faster than the carbon bulb-keeled sportsboats; faster than the Mini Transats. Why would the world's best racing designers be stupid enough to design slow boats?

    If the Parker sharpie hull had such low drag then a big version would have won the America's Cup and the Round the World race. Instead, sharpies of that general type have to be given handicaps that show them to be significantly slower than a standard '70s or '80s style cruiser/racer.

    The flat-bottomed sharpie style hull isn't a new thing; in fact not that long ago there were quite a few of the fastest and most sophisticated developent class racing dinghies, like the International Moth, were using sharpie-style hulls because if a boat has certain power/weight and stability characteristics (and the Parker sharpies have the opposite characteristics) then a sharpie- style hull can perform very well, although it has some very definite handling issues. So many designers have lots of experience with the hull style, and they know it doesn't make a boat of the Egret's dimensions go particularly fast.

    That doesn't mean it's a bad boat at all; they are cool and offer a lot. But the overstated claims that some people make just don't chime with the evidence.
     
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  7. Igor
    Joined: Jul 2022
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    Igor Junior Member

    Very informative post, thank you!

    The 8kt speed claim does not come from the designer but from the sale ad.
    As the boats are rarely bought unseen/untried such bold claim would cause some confusion if the boat did not perform as advertised. Heck, I would have bought that boat just because of that.
    I may add that this particular boat is overweight at 5000lbs. Parker clocks it at 2500lbs on his site.

    Everywhere I have read Egrets are regarded as seakindly in seaway and quite mannuverable but noone ever said they are fast boats. I think I have read on Simon Lew's blog that he pushed his Egret to 8kt on a reach which is not bad at all.

    Is it possible that the double ended flat bottom of Egret allows greater speed under motor of the stern boats of that length?
    IMG_20220720_123842.jpg
    IMG_20220720_123930.jpg
    IMG_20220715_121900.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2022
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  8. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut


    Hello Scuff and Milehog and all others.,

    I want to apologize for my inappropriate comment, even if I don't know what I have written because of the removed line. (thank you amin). It must have been a translation error, english is not my native language.

    I have nothing negative to say about R.Parker and his designs. In fact Iam a fan of Reul Parker, his books and his designs were always an inspiration for my own design work.

    Have fun, Michel
     
  9. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I don't think that a sharpie is the boat you want, if you are going to be motoring into a 3 ft chop frequently.

    Sharpies get their seakindliness by heeling significantly while under sail. This causes them to present a "V" bottom to the sea, which can slice through a chop.

    With a smaller sharpie, say 20 ft or less, such a heel angle can be induced by the crew all sitting on one side.

    A large sharpie of 3 tons or more will stubbornly stay bolt upright while motoring into that chop. This will cause a lot of slamming.

    The reason working sharpies had low sides is that they were fishing boats (usually used for oystering).

    Sharpie yachts kept the low sides to get the maximum amount of initial stability. Sitting the crew out on the extreme windward side works best when the sides are low.

    But this high initial stability comes at the price of less ultimate stability (ability to recover from a knock down), especially if the boat has internal ballast. A deep, heavy ballast keel can make up for this, but then you have deep draft.

    Higher sides can get a reasonable amount of ultimate stability, with a reasonable amount of ballast. But this comes at the cost of initial stability, which cuts into your ability carry sail.

    One way ot of this is to have vertical sides. This is why Bolger sharpies look like pointed boxes (they are). With vertical sides, the waterline Beam is the same as the beam on deck. This allows the greatest buoyancy shift to leeward possible at a small angle of heel, while the high sides get you the range of stability you need.

    They do not have vertical sides for ease of construction. Flaired sided ones are actually easier to build.
     
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  10. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Yes, I think it's possible. This is because it has a relatively small Beam. Plus it can retract its center board. At higher speed/length ratios, wave making becomes the major source of drag. And this wave making is less when the boat is narrower, especially narrower at the waterline.
     
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  11. Igor
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    Igor Junior Member

    Thank you for your reply!
    The Egret type sharpie with its narrow bottom, lot of flare and ballast deeper than New Haven sharpie banks to its side more readily and could be motor-sailed to chop to prevent the worst of the pounding. Definitely much better option than bulldozing through head seas with motor only.

    You did a nice explanation on sharpie tipes, I clearly see how different ratios od hull proportions affect performance and seaworthiness.
     
  12. rnlock
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    rnlock Senior Member

    [​IMG]
    Igor,
    You wrote "Those Bolger's sharpies are an acquired taste, as the rest of his boats though. " If I understand you, I think you probably haven't seen enough of his designs. A lot of them look normal, many are beautiful. If you're seen the movie Master and Commander, you've seen one of the larger examples of his work, though I understand the appearance was tweaked a little for the movie. The Gloucester Gull is his work too, and I think most of us would agree it's very good looking. Certainly the one I saw close up was stunning, but in part that was the workmanship of someone whose real name I've forgotten. [​IMG]
    I think the lapstrake versions of the Chebacco Boat are pretty nice, too:
    http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/Jerome-1.jpg
    I could go on. I forget how many designs he's done. I think it may be upwards of 800. The one I thought of was Burgundy. It's a 28 foot sharpie ketch with a keel, drawing a bit over a meter of water. I suspect it's FAR more stable than that New Haven Sharpie, unless you put a LOT of weight in the centerboard. I realize beach cruising with the Burgundy might be a problem, but maybe you could have a small dinghy. I've attached an image of Burgundy from one of Bruce Hallman's 3D renderings. It appears in Bolger's book 30 Odd Boats. I'm not sure, but there might be enough detail in there to build one.

    This guy wrote that he was building one, some years back:
    What is your favorite Bolger design? - Page 5 http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?97776-What-is-your-favorite-Bolger-design&p=3141391#post3141391
    I have no idea how far he got.

    Bolger did a bunch of other sharpies, some of which might be suitable. Black Skimmer plans are available from Instant Boats (boats aren't instant, but some of theirs are quicker to build). I have no idea if Black Skimmer is suitable. And maybe it's not large enough?

    I've been on a Red Zinger. It has a centerboard, so it's relatively shallow draft. I don't know how many people you want to have on board, I think the cockpit might get crowded with more than 4, but it's been years since I've been on board. The owner told me that he won a few races before they raised his handicap. Apparently the other yachties resented that he was beating them after spending a much smaller pile of money than they did. I doubt, however, that it would have been cheaper if his labor had been accounted for, at the rate he charged when working as a doctor.
    Bolger Red Zinger 01 https://www.flickr.com/photos/23898186@N02/7818658560
    It might be wise to check in with a builder. I think there were a couple of things that Rich would have done differently if he was going to do it again. Be aware that Red Zinger building may be hazardous to a marriage, though theirs survived.

    Some of the Bolger designs are listed here:
    Duckworks Indexes - Bolger A-E https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/plansindex/bolger/bolger.htm
    I think the snail mail address at the above site is still valid. I've heard that sometimes correspondence can take a while. Phil Bolger has been gone for some years now, but I think Susanne Altenberger is still selling plans.
    You can find 3D renderings of many Bolger designs here:
    p https://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/albums/72157613767421231

    You might also explore Jim Michalak's designs.
    Jim Michalak's Boat Designs/The Index http://www.jimsboats.com/
    Plans & Kits - Plans by designer - Jim Michalak - Sailboats - Duckworks Boat Builders Supply https://duckworks.com/sailboats/

    You might be interested in L. Francis Herreshoff's Meadowlark design, though I imagine it's a bit too complicated. It can be found in his book, Sensible Cruising Designs. Many of the larger ones might not be so sensible for those of us who aren't made out of money, though.

    In your place, if I was feeling antisocial I might build two Bolger Bricks and Grout, but with 3/8" ply instead of 1/4", partially decked, and all one piece instead of the 3 pieces, with pivoting leeboards with real foil shapes made from solid wood. Maybe I'd round the bow a little. https://www.pdracer.com/hull-config/brick-grout/grout2.jpg
    I figure this combination could carry at least 1800 lbs. of people and stuff before getting bogged down, since I've seen 4 adults sailing just fine in a Brick.

    Or I might be tempted to do a Folding Schooner, which actually does fold up and can be towed by a small car. I'd 3/8" plywood, partially deck it and add flotation, and use a heavily weighted daggerboard or something. If that didn't make it too heavy, anyway.
    https://www.instantboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FSchon.jpg
    It's so much fun to think about this stuff, and so much easier than what I'm supposed to be doing.

    These are all American designs, but I imagine in your part of the world there are local, traditional designs that are also interesting, and possibly adapted to local conditions.

    P.S. Bolger was a gifted writer, and his books have LOTS of information in them. Many of the boats can be built from what's in the book, if you can't get anywhere with PB&F. (Phil Bolger and Friends, not Peanut Butter and Fluff, which is what I ate for lunch when I was 8)

    some Bolger books:
    Boats with an Open Mind
    30 Odd Boats
    The Folding Schooner
    Small Boats
    Different Boats
    I hope I didn't forget any.

    You might also find Howard Chapelle's Boatbuilding, American Sailing Craft, and American Small Sailing Craft. The boatbuilding book has plans for a few sharpies in it, at least one a bit less extreme than the New Haven Sharpie. American Sailing Craft has a chapter on the New Haven Sharpie. American Small Sailing Craft has some sharpies and related boats in it. Not full plans mind you, but some with offsets.

    fun web sites:
    All Vessels | Mystic Seaport Ships Plans https://store.mysticseaport.org/ships-plans/collections
    Alden Designs - Hart Nautical Collection, MIT Museum - Designers of Fine Yachts http://www.aldendesigns.com/
    Atkin & Co. - Boat Plans https://atkin.mysticseaport.org/
    MIT Museum Homepage | MIT Museum https://mitmuseum.mit.edu/collections/collection/nautical
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. Milehog
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Milehog Clever Quip

    There is no question Bolger had an eye. Too bad he kept it in a lockbox for so many of his designs....

    Quips aside, I'd love to own a Chebacco.

    The final member of the Chebacco family (Bolger design #602) has a 25’4″ lapstrake hull and raised deck with a large 12′ cockpit.
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. rnlock
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    rnlock Senior Member

    There is no question Bolger had an eye. Too bad he kept it in a lockbox for so many of his designs....

    I disagree. I really enjoyed my Brick while I had one. That design could never have existed if it had to be pretty. I'm sure there are reasons for most of the boats that you consider "ugly". You've got plenty of pretty designs to choose from, don't limit the choices for those of us who can see, in some cases, higher priorities than "pretty". Other times, pretty boats are wonderful. I hope to build one someday. A small one.
     
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  15. Milehog
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Milehog Clever Quip

    It was a quip, don't take it too seriously.
    He was a very practical man in a form follows function sort of way. It cannot be denied that he did not let aesthetics get in the way of the SOR of some of his designs.
     
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