Large sharpie for the Adriatic

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Igor, Jul 1, 2022.

Tags:
  1. tane
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 257
    Likes: 88, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: austria

    tane Senior Member

    thank you for the kind reply, Igor!
    One last "pearl of wisdom" that I have to get off my chest:
    only build yourself (instead of buying secondhand) if you do it for the pleasure of the work ( in German we say "The intoxication of creating") as much as for the wish to have a "special" boat. Financial savings by building yourself are highly unlikely (unless you are a true professional & can purchase all materials at boatyard prices), even if you set the financial worth of your labour as zero.
    I am now a good 1000hrs into the build of my 22'er, that in nearly all aspects will be inferior & more expensive than a secondhand minitransat. But it is the pleasure of the build, the return (at 68) to the beginning of my "sailing career of >3rtws", that started in 77, when I was 21, with a home build. This will probably not apply to you, so think twice about even a comparatively quick, easy & "cheap" self-building project.
    Good luck, keep uns informed if you build, fair winds!
    t.
     
    CarlosK2 and Igor like this.
  2. Igor
    Joined: Jul 2022
    Posts: 105
    Likes: 13, Points: 18
    Location: Croatia

    Igor Senior Member

    It is true regarding the boats on the used market, especially here in Norway where I am at the moment, 6000€ buys you a 28ft classic sturdy cruiser that needs some love to make it shine. It is the price of new one cylinder diesel inboard. Boat of such dimensions and capacity would cost tens of thousands euro just in materials not counting at least 2000 hours required to build.

    However there are some boats (all of them small) that can not be found at any price, good sail & oar skiffs are almost non existent on the market, same goes for outrigger canoes and other small fun craft.
    Strip planked surfski kayaks can be built for small amount of cash while the production ones are very expensive, even used..
     
  3. tane
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 257
    Likes: 88, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: austria

    tane Senior Member

    true about the small stripplanked boats! I built a little 1-man stripper canoe in the basement some 10 or so years ago, just to try the method out: great fun building it, small outlay in money & a great building project with an calculable timeframe
     
    Igor likes this.
  4. luckystrike
    Joined: Feb 2010
    Posts: 256
    Likes: 35, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 92
    Location: Germany

    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Surprisingly a flat bottom slams only a little if sailed heeled. I experienced this by sailing a GIS that I built for a customer. The bottom and sides form a "V" which cutts into the waves softly. If you go against the Wind with oars or motor ... you guess it, thats loud! I was impressed by the GIS and develloped a 16' sharpie skiff with a self draining cockpit for more safety and comfort to be a sail and row cruising dinghy. https://forum.woodenboat.com/forum/designs-plans/235676-

    The Aviateur catched my mind too. Watching the youtube videos of Aviateur tells that this is good perfprming boat. I'am currently drawing 21 1/2 foot version, because this fits better into the conditions of my home waters which requires a 6,5m waterline length.

    Have fun, Michel
     
    Igor likes this.
  5. Igor
    Joined: Jul 2022
    Posts: 105
    Likes: 13, Points: 18
    Location: Croatia

    Igor Senior Member

    Yes the flat bottom will not slap if the boat digs its chine in which is easily done by simply repositioning the crew in a small skiff, even under motor. Bigger flat bottom boats would require pumping water ballast tanks or canting keel to lean over in light winds or under motor.

    I like GIS a lot, have the plans which are great by the way.
    One thing which I am not fond of is lack of flotation, the boat really fills up after capsize. Recovery seems straightforward on flat water but in conditiins where I sail I think it would be very problematic.
    It would be better to take heavier skiff but with more much more flotation, like Mertens's CK 17 and tune it up with GIS foils and maybe even rig. cat-ketch-17-sailing-dog.jpg
     
  6. tane
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 257
    Likes: 88, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: austria

    tane Senior Member

    @Aviateur: in the video I had the impression, that the efficiency pof the rudders leaves something to be desired: there seem to be quite large rudder movements with comparatively little response from the boat. Could this be the price to pay for the large skegs? They, of course, are necessary for the boat to dry out well with the tides
     
  7. CarlosK2
    Joined: Jun 2023
    Posts: 505
    Likes: 69, Points: 28
    Location: Vigo, Spain

    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    Good question, and I don't know the answer, on other modern sailboats with two rudders and no skeg you get the same impression.

    For me the problem of the beautiful Aviateur 5.7 is that the fixed rudders prevent or make it very difficult or violent or uncomfortable to anchor in the sea ... bow to the waves with sea anchor, which is the logical procedure in a small boat to rest and / or not risk breakdowns in case of bad weather Upwind
     
  8. CarlosK2
    Joined: Jun 2023
    Posts: 505
    Likes: 69, Points: 28
    Location: Vigo, Spain

    CarlosK2 Senior Member

    Screenshot_2023-07-08-13-50-10-56_e2d5b3f32b79de1d45acd1fad96fbb0f.jpg


    The only answer I can think of is as follows

    On the one hand the HydroDynamic Yaw Moment is/was much bigger than we imagined and so we were used to the rudder turning the yacht easily because the yacht was already very unstable.

    And on the other hand, light sailboats with a wide stern are very stable.

    So perhaps it is this contrast that is striking.

    Screenshot_2024-05-01-10-26-10-44.jpg
     
  9. luckystrike
    Joined: Feb 2010
    Posts: 256
    Likes: 35, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 92
    Location: Germany

    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Hello Igor,

    yes you are right, a GIS is the wrong choice for your unprotected home waters. (for all the other readers: Igor is living and sailing in southern Croatia between the isles Brac, Bol, Hvar and others. Normally there are light to moderate winds and calm sea, but Thunderstorms and the Bora come surprisingly and produce heayy winds and short and high waves).

    Modifiing a design is no good idea, because modifications always have influences on other aspects of the particular design ... structure, balance, wheight distribution and so on.

    Better to build my raid design (no design name yet) It has a double bottom for a self draining cockpit and dry storage compartments as well as 80 litres of Water ballast for increased stability. I think the self rescue ability is the most important feature in cruising dinghy design.
    https://forum.woodenboat.com/forum/designs-plans/235676-
    If you don't like the mordern appearence I can give it a vertical bow and a traditional sheerline. The use of a OK-Dinghy rig ist a interesting option that saves a lot of work and money.
     
  10. luckystrike
    Joined: Feb 2010
    Posts: 256
    Likes: 35, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 92
    Location: Germany

    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Hello Tane,
    I think you are right. The skegs are inportant for drying out and therefore they make the boat less reponsive. But they should also add course stability which is impotant for a wind vane to work properly. Remenber this boat is designed to crosss oceans and a wind vane ist a important equipment in this case.

    Have Fun, Michel
     
  11. tane
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 257
    Likes: 88, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: austria

    tane Senior Member

    about the contribution of (a) skeg(s) to course stability I am not so sure any more. While only having first hand experience of 2 boats - one with full-depth-skeg (Pouvreau 11.30 from 1982) & one with a spade rudder (Elan 410 from 2012) we did quite a few miles in both (2 rtw with the skeg, Brittany-French Polynesia with the spade). Conclusion: the Elan was noticably steadier on course than the Pouvreau, under windvane & hand steering. This probably has to do less with the skeg/ruddder configuration though than with the more balanced, modern design of the Elan. The Pouvreau had noticable roll-steer & the center of gravity seemed to be located far astern of the CLR & aggravated wave-induced yawing. Of course the responsiveness of the Elan with it's big spade was lightyears better than of the Pouvreau.
     
  12. Igor
    Joined: Jul 2022
    Posts: 105
    Likes: 13, Points: 18
    Location: Croatia

    Igor Senior Member

    How far is your design from realisation? Have you tested the prototype yet?
    Regarding the CK17 it proved to be very capable and fast dinghy. One member brought it from US to island Vis in Croatia and sailed it there. Even though it has side floatation tanks it can be righted from full turtle with relative ease and sailed off with no water in. It has also got a lot of room to just lounge in, or even erect a tent on board. Its more outboard motor than sail&oar kind of dinghy though.

    Many GIS builders also started adding side tanks to cut down on the bailing time after capsize.
     
  13. Igor
    Joined: Jul 2022
    Posts: 105
    Likes: 13, Points: 18
    Location: Croatia

    Igor Senior Member

    *edit- this is the quote from Bateau boat builders forum, sailing from island Bisevo to island Vis in fresh summer afternoon westerly is nothing short of serious off shore conditions. View attachment 195059 View attachment 195059 View attachment 195059 Screenshot_20240508_182156.jpg
     

  14. Milehog
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 600
    Likes: 132, Points: 43, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: NW

    Milehog Clever Quip

    The GIS is brilliant in its element. IMO the Dalmation Coast is not a good place for it.
    Somewhere I saw a video of one capsized and the recovery was not pretty.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.