lamination confusion

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by rawleyjerel@yah, Jun 2, 2012.

  1. rawleyjerel@yah
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    rawleyjerel@yah Junior Member

    any one who has any questions on lamination or infusions or anything to do with boat building feel free to contact me @ rawleyjerel@yahoo.com i have been a boat builder for over twenty years and have built hundreds of boats. i would love to answer anybodys questions it will help to keep me on my game. no question to big or small ill answer them all lmao
     
  2. Silver Raven
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Far North Queensland, Australia

    Silver Raven Senior Member

    Hello there 'rawley' - Sure - I've got a question. A laminating one. What laminated would you suggest for a; 40' x 32.5' x 4200 lbs (dry) or 7000 lbs (wet) sailing tri - - at the bow of the main hull mostly but also of the amas - to give substiantial - impact resistance when collisions at sea occure ??? Boat sails at 6 to 24 kts - with the bows @ LWL - either just above the water surface or 4" to 7" underwater - when being hard pressed under a 'Code 0' or shy-reacher. What combination of & in what order - would you suggest - for a laminate of carbon/kevlar/carbon or kevlar/carbon/kevlar -epoxy laninate - how many layers & staggered how far back & under - at the bows. What weights & warp/weft - weave would you suggest ??? I'll attend to the quality of the laminating proceedure at the highest level.

    The collision chances - when travelling at sea - no less dangerous during the day than at night - - of hitting a container - mostly (3/4) sunk - is very high out here in SE Asia & it's increasing ever week - that another 100 containers fall over-board.

    Would sure appreciate any & all information that will better enable me to save my life.

    Thanks, james
     
  3. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    waikikin Senior Member

    This stuff might help http://www.leecosteel.com/products/armor-ballistic-plate.html & combine with something like this http://www.panoramio.com/photo/19721487 or even pointier such that the shipping container is cleaved open to sink but easily shed by the ramming vessel........ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dXCR9LX-Kc ........so as not to be dragged under........... at 24kts that may exceed what might be termed safe speed in an area thick with shipping containers floating 3/4s deep, say 2'6" outa the water.Jeff.
     
  4. Silver Raven
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Silver Raven Senior Member

    Thank you Jeff. I'm so grateful for you input. I'll keep that information - somewhere at hand - loosly speaking. Those valuable suggestions are great but might be a tad heavy for my little 40' tri that only weighs 4000 to 7000 lbs all up.

    I'll try to think a a way to use your valuable knowledge to th best of my ability & I take this time to thank you
     
  5. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    waikikin Senior Member

    No sweat, thanks for the feedback SilverR, it is Sunday here...........my words sans emoticons were kinda tongue in check/eeck, please accept my apologies as I would accept yours.
    Here is the thing, if you smack into a semi submerged container at between 6---24kts, at 3/4 submerged it will weigh maybe 25 odd tonnes, I think your 2-3 tonne tri is gunna get a bit messed up, so if your bows can with the right shape for it, ride up & over with maybe a HMWP skid plate/keel or you can absorb the energy of a collision some other way-like energy absorbing sacrificial bows............... really, it would be a tough scenario to design for, maybe go ape with compartmentalization & accept that your boat got messed up but is afloat, I really don't know what you should laminate your boat with to contend with container impacts, but as you originally asked Rawley who has kindly offered advice on boat building, apparently as a technician experienced in "building" plenty of boats via infusion etc., but not representing himself as a container collision engineer(CCE) I thought:rolleyes: that, the sinking of wayward containers would be a terrific public service & absorption of impact energies with a cleaving knife/ramming bow could have some merit based on my limited(none) experience of container collisions(although I have dragged a container on RHS skids with a Ford station wagon).
    The tone of your request from a new member with as few as 4/6 posts & offering advice on laminating, at the time seemed a little "out there" & unfair & that you were taking the pi$$, & whilst it may well have been made in good faith & asked through your desire to gain knowledge from others perhaps more experienced than your self doesn't seem to fit with the profile you've developed on this forum & I'd put it to you that it might have been $hit bagging a forum member of considerable experience in the fiberglass industry that could well help many others with their inquiries. Of course I may well be totally incorrect in my assumptions(it's something I celebrate, I love the humanity/humility of it) & would offer my humble apologies etc. All the best in your endeavours from Jeff.
     
  6. Silver Raven
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Far North Queensland, Australia

    Silver Raven Senior Member

    Gooday Jeff. You - Sir - do mis-judge me. Yes - I do know something about the subject - that I asked for help with - however I'm sure I don't know as much as - many heads put together - collective knowledge - from all around the world - sharred - & consolidated back into one place.

    It was in that vein - that I asked. I didn't try to hide (read the request I made & the detailed manner & words I asked the question in) & the fact that I've studied the complexities of the problem - however having read of several - collisions with containers - & been involved in 2 - I sure know - that I need some very - high-teck - solution as an insurance to sinking - cause there's no 'fix-it-shop' out there - as least that I've come across.

    As time passes - as I've mentioned - this - container-collision - will increase dramatically. IMHO So many brains are required to thoroughly investigate this potential disaster-problem - before it kill to many of us - sailing-luni's. Again IMHO Ciao, james
     
  7. rawleyjerel@yah
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    rawleyjerel@yah Junior Member

    not sure what you're asking for; do you need a laminate schedule?? what fiberglass to use? please contact me via email as its easier for me to use.
     
  8. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Then, Silver Raven please accept my apologies as it seems I have mis-judged you, maybe I can buy you a beer or three if I,m up that way. Regards from Jeff.
     
  9. Silver Raven
    Joined: Oct 2011
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    Location: Far North Queensland, Australia

    Silver Raven Senior Member

    Questions ? ? ?

    Gooday bloke - What I was really & truely (X-my-heart) after - was if someone knew a lot more than I do about - what laninates to use - in what order to use them - how many layers & of what materials - layed-up in what order.

    I thought - that is what was on offer & I sure do need to learn a lot more about - how to do the 'whole project' - if I can. So that is why I asked the questions that I did.

    You're always welcome, as a 'good-lil-vegimite - don't need much (if any) excuse to pour 'sundowners' or 6 (said the kiwi way)

    Have a good day. I sure hope those on board 'Beau Geste' get a warm shower & a hearty breakfast. Cioa, james
     
  10. rob denney
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    rob denney Senior Member

    I have not done any numbers, but my gut feeling is that there is no way any likely laminate will do the job at 20 knots. Better is to have a watertight bulkhead or 2 with something that will absorb or deflect the impact. I put ultrahigh density polstyrene foam with a couple of layers of glass over it on the bows of my boats for this purpose. My boats are pretty light,with no fittings or loads on the ends so the foam can be up to 600mm/2' long. For yours, you might be better off with Divynicell. To compare them, maybe strap a piece on the front of your car and drive into a wall at increasing speeds. Let us know the results.

    You could also put an angled bulkhead in the foam so that the boat would ride up and over the obstacle.

    rob
     
  11. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I don't think there's any particular difficulty with the impact or penetration protection considerations (different issues), in regard to sufficient laminate weight and more importantly material orientation, but it needs to be worked out with the build method and rest of the schedule. Cioa, I'm reasonably sure you can work out the schedule, knowing your understanding of the principles involved. If you can be more specific about the schedule, I can offer some help. The light weight of your boat, offers some advantages in this situation (container impacts), but at the same time, the flimsy (relatively) laminate detracts from it.
     
  12. Pat Ross
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: Florida

    Pat Ross Corinthian 41 Tri #12

    I have been considering a kevlar laminate application in the critical areas both on the inner and outer hull along with the water tight bulkheads. I know I would need to apply a fiberglass laminate covering over the outer hull kevlar laminate.
     
  13. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    kevlar and glass ???????

    Kevlar ???
    what is you logics in wanting to use Kevlar ??
    what kind of resin system would you be using in combination with the kevlar ??
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Kevlar has some merit, but not on the outside, just the inside and preferably a reasonable distance from the point of impact.
     

  15. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Your right but we normally dont have a choice where the boat gets hit .
    I smile often reading some of the posts where guys are worried about impact ! have driven boats since the 1950s and never hit one single thing !! And if they are worried about hitting waves just ordinary glass can withstand a hell of a lot more than the human body can take believe me .Have seen surf boat get tumbled in the rally big surf and pounded into the sand and waves break completely into and over the top of boats and they popped up filled with water and washed up onto the beach and when the water drained out they never even has a stress mark anywhere . The guys get broken ankles and broken legs and compressed spines and cracked ribs etc etc during compatitions and the boats just keep on going like nothing had happened .
    Motors and boats and tubes have a 2 year life exspectancy on the west coast in the reall rought stuff and then they are replaces, they get another 2 years on the east coast where there is small surf ! theres nothing at all wrong with them its just there policy !.Always a long waiting list from people wanting to by them !
    Only time i have ever used Kevlar was inside the anchor wells of a 147 foot mega yacht that had tones and tones of chain .
    As for smaller power boats, pointless !!
    Combination glass and kevlar used to be all the rage in the late 1980s and early 1990s with launch manufactures but didnt take to long before it went by the board and was never heard from again . Even had guys making super light weight small yachts with nomex core and one thin skin of kevlaron each side . But that was just a flash in the pan and next season was back to glass again .
    :confused::D:p
     
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