Laminate or dacron for 60 foot catamaran

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by MichaelRoberts, Mar 4, 2022.

  1. MichaelRoberts
    Joined: Sep 2015
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    Location: Australia

    MichaelRoberts Archimedes

    After three times more building years than I thought it would take (don't ask) it is almost time to order sails for my boat.

    The main is just over 100 sq. metres (1076 sq. ft), the self tacking jib is 40 sq. m (430 s feet) and the genoa/gennaker about 110 sq. m (1184 sq. ft)

    The quote for 3Di is eyewatering and not really affordable. By contrast the Dacron quote from Hong Kong is about one sixth of the 3Di price

    I am told conflicting stories - laminate lasts longer and laminate only lasts a few years. Also that Dacron fabric isn't strong enough for the loads on this size cat.

    Here are the primary dimensions
    I = 16.4 m
    P = 19.8 m
    J = 5.1 m
    E = 7.0 m

    This boat will be used for cruising, not racing

    I would really appreciate your advice - 3Di or Dacron

    Thanks
    Michael
    ARCHIMEDES 60
     

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  2. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Kind of outta my league, but I'd love to see a picture of the boat.
     
  3. MichaelRoberts
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    MichaelRoberts Archimedes

    Hello fallguy
    It's out of my league too but I'm doing it anyway
    Here is a picture of the rig
    Sail plan 5 March 2022.jpg
     
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  4. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Any pics of the boat as is??
     
  5. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    I presume that you will have the mainsail in a stackpack system, with good quality roller bearing cars on the mast, and the headsails on roller furlers?

    In which case I would go with Dacron. I think it would last longer than laminated sails (I have sailed on boats with them, and they do seem to become fairly knackered fairly quickly - but this was a long time ago - maybe newer ones are 'better' now).
    And consider what cats this size used before all the 'modern' materials came on the scene.
    I don't think they had much choice apart from Dacron.
     
  6. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    redreuben redreuben

    Michael, this place is more about design, I think you’ll find more hands on people with real life up to date advice on Sailing Anarchy or Cruiser Forum.
     
  7. MichaelRoberts
    Joined: Sep 2015
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    MichaelRoberts Archimedes

    Fallguy - here is a pic - hulls just undercoated at the moment
    Bajansailor - yes there are 18 fairly serious cars running in a wide track up the back of the carbon mast - the carbon boom is a 7 x 0.5 meter canoe to hold the main
    Redreuben - OK , will post something on Cruiser Forum

    Talking design - perhaps I can do a mainsail stress analysis using Rhino and a great plug I bought called Scan and Solve. Then if I could get some engineering data on the various Dacron fabrics it might be possible to put in some real numbers. Hmmm

    Thanks for your feedback
     

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  8. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    If you can't get a definitive answer on the sails or you find laminated would be better; you could also consider mix n match, but only for cost. I know nothing about them to comment more, thanks for the pic! Looks like some trees might be in the way for the move, but sure is lovely boat. I am in the 4th year and coming up on 5 and mine is smaller.

    ps-I meant commenting on the sails was outta my league, not the build

    I did find a fun article about your question. I realize this makes me a google expert. Perhaps you read it; perhaps not. I am just a very curious person.

    https://www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/2016/1/18/laminated-vs-dacron-sails
     
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  9. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    Sail lifespan is very dependent on use and storage.
    Frequent use or abuse will shorten life as will long exposure to UV.
    Bad storage will also shorten lifespan if creases are crushed into the cloth.
    UV resistant taffeta can increase lifespan.
    Woven cloth will slowly lose performance as it stretches.
    Laminate cloth will retain 95%+ of its performance until it disintegrates.
     
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  10. Kirk
    Joined: Feb 2022
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    Kirk Junior Member

    Someone else suggested this youtube video. I felt like i learned quite a bit. Interested which way you decide.

    Edit: in video he says catamaran sales guy suggest 1.5 to 1.75 hardware rating vs monohull. Cats seem really rough on sails. Guy says some sails delaminate. Irr he was saying like $18k vs $6k sail costs.

    Edit edit no personal experience just youtube.

     
  11. MichaelRoberts
    Joined: Sep 2015
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    MichaelRoberts Archimedes

    Thanks for your replies - we are getting somewhere.

    As with so much in the world today, we go astray when we use poorly defined terms. It seems the word laminate can mean many things

    Today I learned a bit more about the many meanings of the term laminate sails -
    1. the laminate can be a sandwich of different fibres and different resins
    2. the sails can be moulded in one 3D curved piece or stitched/glued together from panels - for example like a Dacron triradial
    3. a moulded/(molded) sail is shaped by on a large bed with many computer controlled pistons that bend long battens
    4. the threads (strong and expensive or not so strong and cheaper) are laid into a prepreg under layer, the top layer is then applied
    5. then a big vacuum bag and heat from above to cure for 24 hours

    So to compare the strength and longevity of different laminate sails one needs to understand threads (dyneema?) and resin (polyester, epoxy etc?) and construction technique

    Please let me know if my explanation makes sense

    Thanks again for your input

    PS the finite element analysis with Rhino ain't a walk in the park - at least not yet
     
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  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Dacron will take more abuse and can be easily fixed while underway. However, you need laminate for a square head mainsail.
     
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  13. MichaelRoberts
    Joined: Sep 2015
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    MichaelRoberts Archimedes

    Thanks Gonzo
    Yes Dacron feels like a safe - and affordable - way to go
    Ok it will stretch but it won't delaminate
    As you say, with Dacron I would have to say good bye to the fat head main
    Maybe it doesn't matter - this boat will be fast enough anyway
    I've got a less expensive laminate quote today - it is panelled and uses polyester threads - it's all about price vs what threads go into the laminate
    Laminate seems like a lot of money for unknown longevity
    Please keep the advice coming
     
  14. Scuff
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    Scuff Senior Member

    Have you looked at Hydranet?
     

  15. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    In my experience, reefing a laminate sail in cold weather with wet hands absolutely sucks. The upwind performance is better though.
     
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