Lagoon 620 - Unsafe at any speed? Or just silly?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by pbmaise, May 19, 2013.

  1. pbmaise
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    A Lagoon 620 pulled into my marina. The huge boom on this boat apparently is intended to accept the mainsail all nice and neat. However, what I saw wasn't very neat. About 6 feet remained above the boom that is wider than a bath tub. Also it was clear some folds didn't go so well. I can understand that. Would you want to get that high above the water with a mainsail that big and try and get it to fold in neatly?

    The upper deck had only a canvas cover and so you would have to stand on the boom and swing along holding on to the lazy jacks.

    I was already thinking of starting a thread called what is the silliest thing about the 620. I think it is the two helms located on the upper deck. I can understand two helms on a racing boat. There one helm might be awash as the boat heels. However, on a big cat like this the helm hopefully will never be awash, and heeling would be the same no matter what seat you pick.

    Returning to the marina after dinner, I guessed correctly the ambulance that was leaving it was carrying off someone from the Lagoon 620. They didn't fall from the boom. They simply fell down the galley staircase. Apparently it has no hand rail. Now if people are falling down staircases when the boat is parked at a marina, I think Ralph Nader would be interested.

    By the way, Unsafe at any speed, was his book.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  2. Grey Ghost
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    Grey Ghost Senior Member

    Neither. The only 100% safe boat is one that doesn't move nor allow people on.
     
  3. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    People aren't safe either but damned if they aren't trying to recall themselves in so many ways....sort of hard on the rest of the planet lifeforms though.....
     
  4. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member


    Yah..not long ago at the shipyard a crew on one of these modern " things" was up on the boom , fixing some poor main flakes. He slipped , fell 3 meters? and broke his back...he wont be sailing anymore.

    All these designs with high booms represent poor seamanship. Lots of weight , windage aloft and impossible to work on the sail unless in a bosuns chair.
    When in a chair, working on a boom is very difficult

    I feel sad for the folks who purchase these " things" .

    Its no wonder they end up FOR SALE in a year...next sucker
     
  5. pbmaise
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    Designing for safety

    Aloha Michael,
    Sad to learn someone broke their back doing exactly what any reasonable person could have predicted. Lagoon is probably not keen on selling these things to Americans as they would have them in court with multi-million dollar judgements against them in a heart beat. According to dock workers it was a woman who fell down the staircase on the 620 while docked. Since it was a galley staircase and the boat sailed the next day. I will lay odds it was a local Filipino kitchen help.

    What happened to her I have no idea.

    Oh,I just had an idea why the two helms way up top might be valid. The tiny piece of canvas they put up their might not provide enough shade. With two helms you can jump over to the other one if there is too much sun.

    I believe I found the offending staircase. ISN"T THIS STUPID? Would any safety inspector pass this? Notice how many steps the designer expects people to walk downwith no handrail. Further, there appears to be a clear mis-match in stair height. The final riser is shorter than the other ones. This causes tripping. Further according to almost every safety code I know the first step upon entering a staircase cannot be a step downward. It must be at the same level as the floor the person came from.
     

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    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  6. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Flaking onto the boom should be better with the large flat surface on the top of the boom normally you only have to stand at the front of the boom to help guide the sail down. Many large catamarans have some fixed foot and handholds near the base of the mast to make this easier.

    I agree the lack of hand holds in the interior of some catamarans is puzzling and a worry. Cats sail pretty flat but still move around a lot in a seaway but handholds must be out of fashion because many production cats don't have them. It's generally not so bad down in the hull but bridgedeck saloons can be a really risky area if it's possible to fall down the stairwells into the hulls.
     
  7. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Its not just Lagoon...its modern " Style Driven " Naval architecture that continuously pumps out designs that are difficult, dangerous to use.

    Boats with extreme beam and no partitioning, guard rails, or furniture to keep crew from falling 5 or 6 meters to leeward are very common these days.



    Big Open spaces perfect for civilized living and entertaining !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Under deck anchor winches that require crew to actually climb into a locker, then stick thier arms in a darkhole to free up a hung chain are common.

    Anchors that drop out of the bottom of the boat, thru bombay doors, that require a crew to go overboard and clear snagged debris before the anchor can be seated.

    Modern Porsche style cabin houses, flush deck hatchs and no handholds anywhere are common
     
  8. pbmaise
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    Maybe I should go find this woman. My nephew just passed the bar exam

    One thing we just did in documenting problems like this about the Lagoon 620 is create a legal record. This is one of the most consulted sites on boat design and by boat buyers.

    Lagoon, you are now on record that you have safety issues that any reasonable person would have seen, and would have avoided. Instead of installing a simple handrail, you installed luxuries. By building a product with marketing/design first, and safety/engineering second you are putting people at risk of injury or death.

    In my opinion a recall of this vessel is in order. Or perhaps you will wait till someone wins a huge suit against you?

    My nephew just passed his bar exam. Perhaps I should find this woman and the guy who broke his back?
     
  9. Grey Ghost
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    Grey Ghost Senior Member

    Great - what the world needs. Another ambulance chaser :(

    If it wasn't safe enough for his/her clumsiness he/she shouldn't have bought it. Protecting people from themselves get ridiculous and most of the time only makes the lawyers and inspectors money :( Next you'll want to sue because someone could roll out of their bunk and hurt themselves while napping. I wonder if a lawyer ever installed a handrail or if they were too busy making paperwork to learn to use a screwdriver.
     
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  10. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Nonsense. Proper design is safe.

    Its unfortunate that the global financial bubble swelled the pockets of so many.

    These swollen people have money, but no knowledge . they hire architects to design their dreams.

    Look at the dog pictured. Somebodies dream.
    The steering cockpit places the helmsman ABOVE the level of the lifelines, it has no crash bar handhold, no restraint and is an accident waiting to happen

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Grey Ghost
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    Grey Ghost Senior Member

    Those who don't have the knowledge to buy a boat that's safe for them don't have the knowledge to be safe on the water at all. Leave the rest of us free to choose what we want or don't want.
     
  12. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Well...you sound like a wise guy. Ill stay well clear of you !
     
  13. Grey Ghost
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    Grey Ghost Senior Member

    Please. I'm going to have some cream cheese on bagels tomorrow for breakfast. Do you want to litigate me into a safer spread?! Cream cheese can be awful risky :(
     
  14. pbmaise
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    pbmaise Senior Member

    When safety and design isn't and isn't silly

    The Lagoon 620 caught my eye as it is approaching the size of my multi-hull. Lagoon 620 32 feet wide.
    My boat 40 feet wide.

    Despite being even wider than the 620 I have a strong railing on my staircase. About falling out of the bunk. Even my boat's bunks have full straps.

    Lagoon obviously must be doing something about safety to get a CE rating. For example they probably do have an pad-eye within 1 meter of the helm. It would be interesting to check if that is true for all the helms in the 620.

    Overall, a designer must consider who is going to sail their boat. Lagoon's are not ultra fast racing boats. These are cruising boats. Further they are frequently under charter and this means people with fairly little experience will at one point be operating the boat.

    We cannot here make and design sailboats that are 100% safe. However, we certainly can point out what are obvious safety flaws.

    Why is a staircase with 5 steps on a boat, that is more apt to be rolling and pitching, designed with no hand rail? Yet no staircase in a house, or building can be certified unless it has proper railing?

    Overall, I think everyone would agree that there is a practical limit that a multihull built for the cruising community should not exceed. At some point the bigger that main sail is, the bigger that foresail is the greater the danger to the sailing community.

    What drives so many designers is ego. Just because they can design it, and they think it looks right. They do it. The Lagoon 620 should be a ketch. Two smaller masts, and smaller sails that are easier to handle. How many Lagoon 620 sailors take the sail off the boom and store it? Storing your sail on a boom for a long period of time is asking for big trouble.

    The first problems are the birds. They love to establish nests in sails that are resting on the boom. I've fought to keep them off of boats I have been tending. Any tiny entrance in the sail cover is a point for them to get in and establish a nest.

    Once the birds establish their nest, the next problem are the rats. They are attracted to the nice smell of the old bird nests and to them it is food. They keep right on eating and thus you get a hole in your sail.

    Therefore, in my book, anytime a boat is off the water and not sailed for more than 2 months, the sails should be taken off the boat and stored below. Like I said. My boat is bigger than the Lagoon 620. It takes 3 strong guys to get the sail into the ama, and 4 to take it out when ready to use. I doubt a single Lagoon 620 owner has ever taken his sail off his boom. Perhaps they do indeed sell them within one year.

    Another issue with the Lagoon 620 is the huge compression force exerted by the full batten mainsail. Lagoon is using a 2 to 1 block to help overcome this resistance when raising the main. That may be fine, however, what about coming back down. Sorry people, those cars jam. They jam right when you want the sail down the most.

    Therefore, I place the Lagoon 620 into the category of SILLY.

    I am by the way a fan of smaller Lagoons and Maxi. I wish I had purchased one of these smaller boats instead of the one I now have.
     

  15. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I hire a crane to load the mainsail..

    The sail is rigged with battens and flaked into a long sailbag while on the dock. The crane lifts the bagged sail with a bridle..puts it overtop the boom...outhaul and tack are rigged...lazy jack erected.... sail seated on boom...then the sail is hanked on the luff.

    Fully batten sails are high maintenance and very difficult to service when on the boom. Ive never liked them.

    I have no problem hoisting...perhaps you have too much batten tension.

    I have problems with the compression load on the batten car and pocket ends when sailing...light air, rough sea is abusive or jibing the main. I no longer jibe fully battened mainsails. Chafe on rigging is an issue

    I wonder when the inflatable battens used on the Mega yachts will become viable on smaller sails.
     
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