Kitchen rudder

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by duluthboats, Mar 8, 2002.

  1. cajunseadog
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Location: Raceland, Louisiana, USA

    cajunseadog Junior Member

    That's an interesting idea Gary. Speaking of actuators, would this sort of thing be what you have in mind? http://www.mpcproducts.com/
    I'm sure there are other motion control systems out there that might be a better fit though.
    This may be worth a look. http://stores.daltonhydraulic.com/-strse-Remote-Controls/Categories.bok

    It's possible these folks might be able to help with an electronic control system http://www.joystickcontrol.com/

    This link may give some inspiration http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/Sim/linear-act.html

    It seems like maybe one could rig up a hydraulic setup for this, but I'm no expert, just guessing.
    I'm certainly interested in tinkering with all of this at some point. I have a picture of a setup in my head, but there is much to fine tune and improve. I guess they could be mounted inside the hull connected to push rods to control the clam shells, above the waterline of course. I can see this is going to take a good bit of thought, and some experimentation.
    I'm thinking you could have a regular steering setup, with a wheel and rudder tiller, or just a tiller (depending on what your needs are), but have a switch for the actuators that, when thrown, would activate the cylinders and close the clam shells for thrust reverse.
    I apologize if that all sounded incoherent....thinking as I type doesn't always turn out orderly. :D
    Would you have any drawings/cad files that might be compatible with Turbo Cad? I think I still have it on my pc, but it's been ages since I've even opened it. I can pm you my e-mail address if needed.
    Thanks,
    Matt
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  2. timswait
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    timswait Junior Member

    Gary: Did you get my PM? I'd love to get my hands on your CAD files, I don't think I can open Rhino directly with ProE, but I can open plenty of other formats, vrml, catia, dwg, dxf, iges, etc.
    Cheers
     
  3. duluthboats
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

    Tim,
    I got your message, I just have to dig up the file. I had a visit from family and lost my free time. I will try to get at it today.

    Matt, this rudder can be operated with electronics, hydraulics, or cables. Like you some days ideas just pop into my head. What version of TC do you have?

    I have made a very crude scale working model of the tiller version. The mechanics work but will it work in operating conditions?

    Please keep in mind this rudder works best in situations like Tim’s, slow running needing max control. In most cases you will get very similar results with an outboard.

    If you are like me and don’t want an outboard and maybe even looking at electric drive than this might be for you. It could also mean that you are almost as crazy as I am.

    Gary :D
     
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  4. timswait
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    timswait Junior Member

    Gary, Thank you very much, I got the file today and it opens in ProE, I'm going to have some fun playing about with it.
    My principal concern is the amount of force required on the tiller to "close" the rudder. I wonder if that's why they used the screw thread, it makes it easy to apply the force that way.
    On some designs I've seen the clam shells are double curved as opposed to the the single curve in your design, do you think it will make that much difference?
    TBH I'm quite happy standing on the back of the boat steering. I'll keep the traditional swan neck shape tiller and leave the eletronic acuators for someone else to think about. On the other hand it would be quite cool to be able to remote control the boat while going through locks, would make it easy to open the gates, sail the boat out, and hop on as it goes past! :)
     
  5. cajunseadog
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    cajunseadog Junior Member

    Aye Gary, I may just be as crazy as you are :D I have Turbocad 7, so I can send a pm with my e-mail. It should be able to handle DGN, DWF, DXF, EPS, FCW, FP3, HPGL, SAI, WMF, BMP, WRL, IGES ,3DS, and JPG. I've never tried opening files with it, but those are the formats that came up in the supported formats list. Thanks in advance if you have any that you can send.

    I was thinking of this for a semi-displacement or displacement hull, but now that you mention it I would prefer to tinker with it on a small electric drive boat first. If I ever do something with this I will post pictures and video of it. The most I'll likely ever do is tinker though, I doubt I'll ever try to come up with something that would be worth manufacturing or anything. Besides, that's what bow and stern thrusters and azimuthing drives are for....if the azimuth drive for boats really takes off that is. The only ones I know of so far are the CMD Zeus and the Volvo-Penta IPS, and I'd like to see more designs for boats of different sizes enter the market. Also there is the electric Aziprop, if it ever goes gets popular. I'm not sure what the production status of it is. http://www.fischerpanda.de/products/eng/182

    This isn't a kitchen rudder, but it probably gets maneuverability like one, or maybe better than one, if you were to fit one to a canoe like the one this system is on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viX6kC9C0Yc
    I can get one of those Nintendo Wii Nunchuks for $20 or less, now all I need are a couple of trolling motors, a canoe, servos, and one of the controller cards he used.
    Anyway, sorry I got a off topic a bit there. Tim, best of luck with your project. I love narrowboats and other canal boats. Getting to see one using a kitchen rudder would be interesting.
    Peace,
    Matt
     
  6. timswait
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    timswait Junior Member

    Been having a play with ProE, and come up with this way of operating the rudder using a traditional style narrowboat swan neck tiller. You lift and push backward on the tiller to close the rudder. The design is very simple with just one hinge and two push rods (each rod would need a rose joint on each end).
    Any comments? The main issue I can think of is how much force would be required to operate it? I just don't know if it would be unacceptably heavy. I also don't know how the rudder would be balanced. Would you need to apply force to hold it open, or force to close it, or would it balance somewhere in the middle and need force to move it either way from there? I'd fit a locking mechanism to the hinge so it can be locked fully open, and I'll have a marine gearbox with a conventional reverse gear, so if worse came to worst I could always lock it open and use it as a simple nozzle.
     

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  7. artemis
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    artemis Steamboater

    Based on the experience of two people I know who have fitted this to under 30' boats...
    1. There appears to be no balance point :( ;
    2. Think of the amount of force the propeller thrust develops, that's what you'll be fighting :confused:
    3. That's why in the earlier designs you see a handwheel turning a shaft with a worm gear engaging the turning mechanism - the worm gear provides the mechanical advantage as well as "locking" the position :idea: .
     
  8. timswait
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    timswait Junior Member

    What's the considerations with the shape of the clamshells? Should they be parallel as viewed from above like my top rendering, or taper in a nozzle shape like my second rendering? Then should it have an equal area in front and behind the pivot line, or should it have more behind? I guess this has an impact on the amount of force it requires to work it, is there anyway to calculate it? Some of the designs seem to be fully balanced and some aren't. The one in the 3rd diagram down is parallel but not fully balanced and looks similar to the one on the steam boat talked about earlier in the thread. Then there's the 4th one down which has clamshells which form a full tube ahead of the propeller. This seems a good idea to me as it also forms a lock which stops the shells going past the fully open position.
     

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  9. TerryKing
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Could Kitchen work on these boats??

    A little off topic, but take a look at these small (12 by 3 feet or so) boats that have a small air-cooled inboard of about 12HP, fixed prop, offset rudder, and NO clutch or reverse:
    http://terryking.us/photoalbum/v/travel/borneo2009/boats/?g2_page=7
    (click for bigger, click again for even bigger)..

    Could a kitchen arrangement work on a boat like this?

    Anyone seen a kitchen on a small planing boat? Too much drag??

    The whole album is here:
    http://terryking.us/photoalbum/v/travel/borneo2009/
     
  10. artemis
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    artemis Steamboater

    Because of the design of the nozzle, I would think the effect would be something like a Kort nozzle and I believe the speed limitation is something on the order of 12 knots. :?:
     
  11. timswait
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    timswait Junior Member

    I also heard (but I can't remember from where, could have been earlier in this thread or could have been the wikipedia article) that by ducting the prop (like a Kort nozzle) you improve efficiency at low speeds, but produce extra drag at medium to high speeds, so they're not much use beyond 12 to 15 knots. That would seem to me (together with the popularity of stern drives which are a drop on thing that doesn't need so much phaffing about with the rest of the boat) to be the reason that they've never really caught on in a big way. Mind you, it seems ideal for my narrowboat which will cruise at 4 knots and probably will never go much over 6.
    Oh, and on the borneo boats I don't see why it wouldn't work (except for the extra drag slowing them down a bit), but I think simplicity is the key for those boats, and they probably don't need to go backwards very much. If it ain't broke.........
     
  12. ben2go
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    ben2go Boat Builder Wanna Be

    Thinking about this idea for a boat I'd like to build.Seems to fit the boats caracteristics.
     
  13. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    how about the schilling rudder. I once used a 15 foot hireboat on the upper thames & the reverse didnt reverse, it just stopped the boat, someone told me it was a kitchen rudder, but I cant be sure.
     
  14. ben2go
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    ben2go Boat Builder Wanna Be


  15. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    true, It's attraction lies in it's manouverability
     
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