Keels and Keels Again!

The percentage of people who die while sailing (deaths/man hour) also approaches zero.

If you think the pro racers would walk from canters (and their paychecks) then you did not pay attention during the last Volvo.

One can find whatever pattern they want in any data set.

The fact is boats are generally hand made things. When you consider giant companies like FORD or even the US Military cannot keep "unsafe" items out of the hands of users how can we expect zero defect from what is really an artisan cottage industry?

By some measures your Cat 30 is an unsafe vehicle, yet you take people out and "endanger" them.

Sure, let's put in regulations to ensure no boat that is not perfectly safe gets onto the water. OK, so then NO BOATS would ever be produced, so no problems. Right?

 

So is there a problem or not? (Yes or No)

Can we expect any improvement is there is a problem? (Yes or No)

Adding regulations to autos (once as much of a cottage industry as boats) has not stopped auto production. It hasn't even stopped kit cars.

Why are you so defensive?

Are you still pissed off that I called Farr losing the AC for BMWO right?

 

The man from Istanbul has what appears to be an excellent idea.

 

Statistically, no. You are safer on a mass production fin-keeled boat than you are driving to work.

There were no "good old days". Boats today are far better than they were 50 years ago. However, 50 years ago there were less people doing it and there certainly wasn't a worldwide 'net to report every issue.

I'm sure you will not be the happiest guy in the world when some politician tells you your Cat 30 needs to stay in the slip forever based on a calculation of the stability and the main hatch opening dimensions.

The marketplace will dictate that.

Yet with all the regulations we still see things like the minivan issue, the Bridgestone tire issue, SUV COG rollover issues, flaming Pintos, etc.

There is no "zero defect", regardless of how many regulatory agencies you staff with my tax dollars.

I'm not defensive at all, and why would I be pissed that you made a fool of yourself?

I am more amused by some of the Chicken Little reactions I see. We sure don't add regulation for autos because of a failure on the F1 circuit. Why on earth would we add regulation based on failures of another sort of racing vehicle?

 

That's an interesting proposition to play with, although probably I'd favour more investigation on the reasons of failures and then designing for no breaks based on the learning.

Let's do some brainstorming following the wake of Omeron's idea:

Some questions:

- What would be the designing breaking load, if we don't know what the real loads are?

- When the keel has dropped off after breaking by the paper-roll dotted line ( ), without damaging the hull, should we need also to quickly release and throw away the mast, to avoid stability problems? How could this be done?

- Would the mast be thrown away in its entirety, or should we also have some kind of a 'dotted line' for it, so making it break at a certain height and so allowing for an emergency rig?

- Or should we mount aboard an emergency kite?

.......


Cheers.

 

Some ideas may not be as funny as you first think it is.
To help you understand and think more, i suggest this.
Depending on your performance requirements,design your best keel. Than go and build a prototype as strong as you can. Normally your job would finish there and you would go home thinking you did the best possible wouldnt you?
Now, instead of stopping there see what kind of a force/loading static or dynamic rips it off the hull. I mean test it to destruction, untill you are staring at a hole in the hull.
This is the amount of force you were wondering about, and this is the amount of force which will sink the boat.
Now go back to the drawing board and start thinking what you can do, so that when you appy that much force to your beloved keel, it either bends
or gets ripped of not by the hull join but somewhere lower, leaving the hull intact.
I imagine you would want to be on a boat like this, than water sprouting up your face in the middle of an ocean.

 

Thanks Paul

You make some very good points.

I agree that regulation is no complete answer and does not guarantee positive results. While regulation has not prevented failures in production cars, there can be no argument that the death rate and more importantly the severity of injury are not better than they were in the 1950's

Your observation of racing failures not spawning regulation for production vehicles is a good one. My point here is that motor racing enforces some pretty strict safe regulations and drivers are walking away from incidents that would have been fatal not so many years ago. Part of the safety effort is routine inspections and construction standards. Some of these ideas could be applied to racing sailboats. Even local club events have tech inspections and every car has to pass before it is allowed on course. Would sail racing be safer if safety standards were in place and enforced? I'm not saying they would be, I'm asking the question.

I have no problem with the marketplace controlling itself, although I can see the points being made that boats are sold that may not be well suited for their intended use and death is a high price to pay for no regulation and standards. There is no solution that I am comfortable with, experienced sailors don't make as many poor choices as people new to the sport/pastime but dead sailors never get to be experienced.

As far as the C30 goes, I have some issues with it, one is keel related. I am counting on this forum and people like you to give me honest feedback when I am ready to share the story in a few weeks.

As far as making a fool of myself ... this forum is nothing ... you should see me sail a Laser!

As for the AC. BMWO stuck with Farr, the boat was slow, they missed the final again. Where I was wrong, was I thought that the BMW composite guys would get it right and their custom headstay foil failed.

Great to cross swords with you again!

Randy

 

My job is related to product safety and I deal with regulatory agencies daily. Consumers would go mad if they realized how inept we are when it comes to creating and administering safety regulations. It is not only the USA, it is pretty consistent across the globe. Lately the EU has taken the lead in creating silly requirements, lifting the mantle the USA had held for so long.

After doing this work for the past 20 years I have to say Caveat Emptor, rely on personal responsibility, and NO to the nanny state.

Many large racing craft are built to ABS or LLoyd's requirements. Yet we still see issues. No one can forsee every possibility, and even if you could you certainly cannot plan and execute your design to survive every one-in-a-million event.

When I raced my vintage 914/6 it went through tech every race, but it was done by volunteers and we so non-technical, well it didn't really make much difference.

Races like Transpac do have similar inspections that are required. However, the people who do them are also volunteers and do not check for construction issues.

Here we can agree. I jumped back into a Laser last year after 18 years of not doing it. You think you can just jump right back in and do what you did in the past but it is worse than when you first tried it, when you had youth on your side.

 

I qualify as a 'Grand Master' these days ... and my Club runs an "Old Farts" laser series ... so I got the third new Laser in my lifetime ... First was in #7000 series, then another when I became a 'Master' ... and now 191520 ...

I had forgotten what pain was ... I can still recover from a capsize and keep my smokes dry ... other than that ... I'm just not going to top the Laser results anywhere ...

Next stupidity is a Hobie 18 ... look out!

Back on topic ...

The C30 never had a crack at the hull/keel joint until after a grounding incident ... I finally decided to bite the bullet and fix it ... dropped the keel, found the mild steel bolts were just about gone ... had a shipyard cross drill it and install tie bars and threaded studs ... ground all the rotten wood out of the stub/bilge ... reglassed and rebedded the keel ... after less than 300 sea miles the crack is back ...

I'm half a continent away from photos to post to show the repair work and the new crack ... I'd like some opinions on a few things ... starting with: It is reasonable to expect that the keel/hull joint can be crack and leak free?

If I'm chasing a impossible dream and I should learn to live with a 'smile' (there are no leaks now) I'd like to hear that.

If a crack free joint is a reasonable expectation, I'd like to know where the repair process failed and what options I have.

No, the boat was never grounded after the repair, just a 250 mile shake down before taking it down the coast from Vancouver to Mexico.

If there is any interest I'll post photos here or start a new thread.

 

" After doing this work for the past 20 years I have to say Caveat Emptor, rely on personal responsibility, and NO to the nanny state."

Music to my ears.
Problem is, all the non-producers make the rules to justify their jobs.
Besides Darwinism is good for the planet,cull out a bit of flotsam.

 

I looked up into the hole in the bottom of the TP52 in question and I'm surprised at how little distance the fin inserts (spare fin sitting nearby). I'm also surprised at the two bolts (only two) used to hold it on.

These offshore boats should have the key equipment that you CAN'T afford to lose attached in the most secure way possible.

I'm not convinced by the system used on this boat (but I'll stick to centreboards because I am a 'wimp')

 

Omeron,
I was not trying to be funny. Just creative, applying some lateral thinking to your idea.

Cheers.

 

Boats may be better than they were 50 years ago, but are not as good as they were 30 years ago , when materials and labour were cheaper, when they could afford to use enough materials and labour to build them properly without going bankrupt. Keels never fell off as often then either, and when boats capsized they didn't stay upside down.
Brent

 

How long have the fine fin/big bulb keels been around and gaining in popularity? About the 30 years you mention?

 

I'm glad to learn several of the bulbed keeled production cruising sailboats' manufactures, are now making bigger and stronger keel roots to better cope with the extra loads imposed by the bulb, as Jeanneau, i.e.

Cheers.