K24T versus Buccaneer 24

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by gpb, May 22, 2009.

  1. Samnz
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Samnz Senior Member

    The B24 is smaller inside but will be much faster than the K24T. Dont believe designers claimed weights without weighing a finished boat. My Bucc weighs 750kg, that K24T would be well over 1000kgs without a doubt.

    I would build the Boat Jamez has chosen, its basically an updated Bucc 24, looks good, heaps of space, easy and cheap to build and will be fast.
     
  2. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    I recently got some plans for the new Kurt Hughes 23, I built an earlier one. The new plans are a huge step forward given that 15 years worth of improvements are evident. The 23 is almost a daysailer, and the current plans accurately refer to it as one adult and 2 child berths. But for the same weight being considered here, the 26 would be an option and should have a better accomodation plan if that is important. Still the cheapest fastest thing out there as far as I can see. Fun build also.
     
  3. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    Thats a fairly good way of describing it. Compared with the B24 the hull shape is more modern with a deeper forefoot and a bit less rocker, carried further aft. Floats are bigger at approx 145% vs 100%. Beams are one piece timber and ply boxes glassed over with stainless flat bar supports - much simpler. But the big difference is the interior. The step in the hull gives sitting headroom on the settee berths and the cabin doesn't effectively finish where the front crossbeam crosses the mainhull. The front v-berth platform is fully accessable from the main cabin - like a Farrier or Kendrick.

    I looked hard at the KHSD 26 but unless one is building purely for speed I feel the 'trench and pod' configuration is past its use by date. One of the reasons (other than workable folding) for the success of Farrier and Dragonfly designs is that they work a useful interior into a small package. The interior of the Delaveau is similar to the F24, maybe with a little more headroom. The interior of the Hughes 26 is wider but with less headroom and without the benefit of sitting headroom over the main cabin bunks. I also looked at the KHSD 24. It has a double stepped/flared main hull that has a layout similar to, but smaller than the F24. As it needs a foam build to keep to designed weight it is likely more expensive to build than the KHSD 26.

    In NZ The KHSD 26 costed out as being more expensive than the Delaveau for materials either in the spec'd CM or with the strip main hull I wanted. The alloy crossbeams being particularly problematic, as suitable stock tubes the right length are not available here and mast sections the right size would need to be sleeved at certain points because the wall thickness was too thin. The beams alone would have used a sizeable chunk of my eventual spend. I note that Kurt has begun re-working the design with some alternative crossbeams - but the core of the design seems similar.

    This should not be taken as criticism of the KHSD 26 design itself. Its just that for my combination of available money, needs, wants, availability of materials and building skills I took a different option.
     

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  4. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    The Deleveau boat looks like a nice boat, but it is 50% more boat as an 8.5, than a 24'. So saying it has more space is hardly a fair comparison.

    I don't much like the trench and pod construction as you put it, but I don't really thing it is out of date. The full length hull flange style has been around for a long time and is one I prefer, but on the small end of things it is quite heavy for the amount of cockpit you get. Currently I have a hard chine full length flange, 18.5' drawing on the board, that I would like to build. But there are other features of the Delveau that do not seem modern, like the hull shape. In my case I need all that stuff to fit into the length I have to work with and my hull shape is pretty similar. Not much choice for a fat boat in ply.

    I would think Italy would be reasonably well supplied with metal, and less so supplied with wood, based on one build I know. In Canada the alloy tubes cost me 200 for the pair. I have a love hate relationship with the alloy tubes. I think at a minimum there ought be an alternative.

    "Compared with the B24 the hull shape is more modern with a deeper forefoot and a bit less rocker, carried further aft."

    Actually one of the first things I noticed about the deleveau is that the forefoot wasn't deep, say in the 45% range, not even a third just eyeballing it. Beating the B24 that rarely seems to have the front half of the boat in the water at rest is not a big deal, seems to work in practice though.
     
  5. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    >The Deleveau boat looks like a nice boat, but it is 50% more boat as an 8.5, than a 24'. So saying it has more space is hardly a fair comparison.

    The Delaveau is 7.6 metres or 24'11"loa. I think thats close enough to make a comparison. I did mention earlier it was a 'bigger'boat for the size that used more materials.

    >I don't much like the trench and pod construction as you put it, but I don't really thing it is out of date. The full length hull flange style has been around for a long time and is one I prefer, but on the small end of things it is quite heavy for the amount of cockpit you get.

    I expect the finished boat to weigh more than Samnzs B24, but I won't know how much until its built and weighed.

    >Currently I have a hard chine full length flange, 18.5' drawing on the board, that I would like to build. But there are other features of the Delveau that do not seem modern, like the hull shape.

    I said more modern in comparison with the B24. I made the observation after looking at a bunch of more recent multi designs that are deeper in the forefoot (to varying degrees), have less overall rocker and carry it further aft. You see the same evolution from the Tennant GBE to some of the modern racing cats of the same size. The GBE and the B24 are of similar vintage. Perhaps more modern was the wrong term. Possibly more evolved would have been more accurate. To my eyes its main hull shape is more evolved than the B24, but not extemely so.

    >In my case I need all that stuff to fit into the length I have to work with and my hull shape is pretty similar. Not much choice for a fat boat in ply.

    I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

    >I would think Italy would be reasonably well supplied with metal, and less so supplied with wood, based on one build I know. In Canada the alloy tubes cost me 200 for the pair. I have a love hate relationship with the alloy tubes. I think at a minimum there ought be an alternative.

    Bring on cheap carbon tubes. I couldn't get 6.5 metre alloy tubes here without getting a minimum of 250kg extruded. The thickest walled mast extrusion I could find in the right size was $200.00 a metre and would have required sleeving, plus the cost of all the fittings. Wood is cheaper but heavier.

    "Compared with the B24 the hull shape is more modern with a deeper forefoot and a bit less rocker, carried further aft."

    >actually one of the first things I noticed about the deleveau is that the forefoot wasn't deep, say in the 45% range, not even a third just eyeballing it.

    I don't understand. What are you actually measuring here?

    >beating the B24 that rarely seems to have the front half of the boat in the water at rest is not a big deal, seems to work in practice though.

    Not sure what you mean by that either.
     
  6. Zed
    Joined: May 2009
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    Zed Senior Member

    Jamez, has the Delaveau design got a name?... it looks like a sexy little number for a ply boat, good choice!
     
  7. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    Thanks Zed. Its called a Nicky Cruz 25 (or 7.6 depending on what day it is :) )
     
  8. Zed
    Joined: May 2009
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    Zed Senior Member

    Thks... more picture pls, if its easy :D, love to watch others work... LOL!

    Actually I'm plotting for the future!
     
  9. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    If anybody is interested I only have only one more set of BUC 24 plans available. PM me for my PayPal addy.:D
     
  10. barks
    Joined: Jun 2009
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    barks Junior Member

    I suggest going for the lightest and most popular. You will save money on the build, have decent performance and have a greater chance of selling it in the future.
     
  11. caiman
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    caiman Junior Member

    I currently own the Kurt Hughes 8m in the picture above.Can anyone give me any details about this boat?ie who built Her,construction details etc?When I got the boat sailing earlier this year She had a lot of Lee Helm.I have moved the mast aft and this has improved matters.However,the steering is very 'sudden death'.If you move the tiller about two inches off the centre line it tries to take over.This happens in both directions on either tack.Has anyone got any ideas on this?There is a significant area of rudder ahead of the rudder stock(balanced) and I am starting to think that this might be causing the problem in that,the 'servo' action ,caused by the area ahead of the rudder stock, is too great.Has anyone outthere got the same design boat? What does the rudder look like?Is there a table that gives the optimum areas ahead and aft of the stock ?Am I barking up the wrong tree?All input and ideas are welcome.
    I'm quite pleased with the boat.I've only day sailed Her so far(autohelm next on wanted list,some kind of a spray hood after that,anyone got any experiance in making spray hoods?plans?).The berths on the boat (two) are quite large.At 6 foot.I can lay full length on either berth with room to spare.The width is about 2 foot six.Nearly,but not quite a full 'double'.The berth in the bow is usable,but it's a bit of a squeeze past the beam.Seating inside is basic,at the moment,three people could just about sit down and eat(no table).I intend making a boom tent which will give me loads more room.Mounting a cooker is another problem at the moment. This is my first tri and I'm still a bit shocked at the speed of the thing.At 14.5K She just sits there humming to me!!Awesome.
     
  12. caiman
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    caiman Junior Member

    I currently own the Kurt Hughes 8m in the picture above.Can anyone give me any details about this boat?ie who built Her,construction details etc?When I got the boat sailing earlier this year She had a lot of Lee Helm.I have moved the mast aft and this has improved matters.However,the steering is very 'sudden death'.If you move the tiller about two inches off the centre line it tries to take over.This happens in both directions on either tack.Has anyone got any ideas on this?There is a significant area of rudder ahead of the rudder stock(balanced) and I am starting to think that this might be causing the problem in that,the 'servo' action ,caused by the area ahead of the rudder stock, is too great.Has anyone outthere got the same design boat? What does the rudder look like?Is there a table that gives the optimum areas ahead and aft of the stock ?Am I barking up the wrong tree?All input and ideas are welcome.
    I'm quite pleased with the boat.I've only day sailed Her so far(autohelm next on wanted list,some kind of a spray hood after that,anyone got any experiance in making spray hoods?plans?).The berths on the boat (two) are quite large.At 6 foot.I can lay full length on either berth with room to spare.The width is about 2 foot six.Nearly,but not quite a full 'double'.The berth in the bow is usable,but it's a bit of a squeeze past the beam.Seating inside is basic,at the moment,three people could just about sit down and eat(no table).I intend making a boom tent which will give me loads more room.Mounting a cooker is another problem at the moment. This is my first tri and I'm still a bit shocked at the speed of the thing.At 14.5K She just sits there humming to me!!Awesome.
     
  13. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    rudder

    caiman, I can't see your rudder in the pic, but the "auto" helm is often the result of a rudder mounted on a sloping transom. If you study the geometry, the rudder "flops" over when it is turned and the center of pressure on the blade moves and takes over- sometimes with enough force to snatch the tiller out of your hand. I am sure there are other solutions, but I have moved the upper gudgen aft on several boats and fixed the issue. The force goes up on the lower gudgen and pintel so make sure they are well attached and up to the job. Vertical transoms don't look as "cool", but are a lot easier to mount a rudder on, and a balanced blade works just fine with one. Bruce
     
  14. jamez
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    jamez Senior Member

    Hi caiman,
    Thats a nice looking boat you've got. I'd suggest talking to Kurt re. the steering/rudder issues. he's really helpful - even with people who don't buy his plans, You might also check the catalogue if you can get a copy, my old version includes a number of sample plan sheets, one of which includes the 23foot rudder drawings which I wouldn't think would be much different to yours.

    How much headroom do you have over the bunks?
     

  15. caiman
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    caiman Junior Member

    Thanks for your replies and my apologies for not responding sooner.The 'Auto' helm you refer to is exactly what is happening to Caiman.I have just broken my camera so I can't grab a decent pic of the rudder at the moment.I'm going to try and post a pic of the stern of the boat but it's not very good.,I tried this the other night and somehow deleated my entire response so we will see what happens.
    In the stern of Caiman there is a slot into which the rudder assembly mounts.The rudder is hung under a 'cassette'(i think that is the word)which rotates about a pivot(detachable round bar which slides through a mounting on one side of the slot, slides through the rudder, and then into a mounting on the hull on the other side of the slot) athwart ships at the forward end of the slot.The 'cassette' totals fills the slot by being drawn into position with a downhaul.The rudder is effectivly 'underhung' beneath the main hull.In the pic,the red square on the transom hides a similar arrangement to the pivot at the front of the slot except this is to slide in a weak dowel link so that it holds the rudder cassette in position,but will break if you hit something at speed.It works !! I hit a big jellyfish at about six knots the other day and the doweling snapped,like a 'greenstick fracture' into three pieces.
    Internally there is about two feet headroom above the bunks.When I get a new camera I'l try to post better pics.The seat is about four inches lower down the 'trench' and is quite comfy despite it's looks.The bunks are plenty wide enough,bigger than a single but not quite a double.At six foot tall I can easily strech out fully with room to spare,so they are plenty long enough as well.I intend fitting out the interior by panelling from the edge of the trench up to the deckhead thus giving a bit of privicy.There is not however enough headroom to sit on the edge of the bunks with your legs in the trench.
    I will be installing a portable(probably) double burner and grill,but I don't know where yet.I also need to mount a small butane cylinder somewhere.The port cockpit locker is quite large housing two 20 litre outboard fuel tanks with loads of room to spare.It would easily also accomodate the Camping Gaz 904 type cylinder,but these are very expensive to exchange and not as available as the more popular 907.The 907 type is too tall to fit the locker.I was also thinking about housing the battery in the same locker and allthough the locker is draining,I thought better of mixing sparks and fumes in the same confined space.
    Thanks for your kind comments about Caiman.If you have any more ideas on my steering please post them.Could you post a pic of the rudder on your plans?Hopefully you will identify from the pic if we both have the same system.
    I tried EMailing Kurt Hughes.I actually got that idea from this forum.He was offering a sort of helpline for which there was a charge.This is fair enough.Unfortunatly there are more urgent(expensive) priorities.But you are right,He is quite helpfull.
    Cheers
     
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