K24T versus Buccaneer 24

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by gpb, May 22, 2009.

  1. gpb
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    gpb Junior Member

    I'm interested in building a 24' trimaran and am currently considering the Kismet 24T drawn by Bill Kristofferson and the Buccaneer 24 by Lock Crowther. I've been doing a detailed comparison and, even if the overall dimensions look very similar, the K24T requires almost twice as much plywood, and looks like she is more robust and has much more volume.
    Any comments on either one?
     
  2. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    weight of K24

    GPB, What does the K24 weigh? It has more volume than the Buc 24, but I can't quite tell from the pictures on the site if it is that much larger. Most of the later Buc 24s have a larger cabin than is shown on the original plans that makes a real difference with out much effect on performance. I would guess the K24s' plans are more detailed, but the Buc 24 plans have everything you need to build one. I just got a set from Old Sailor and they are quite complete, Crowther just didn't waste paper:) I am sure there is plenty of on line help to fill in any details on either boat's construction. The ideal boat might be a combination of several designs. Both boats could use more modern floats and the K24 style crossbeams might improve the buc24. I am not so sure that heavier construction makes a tri more durable; well designed and light reduces all the loads on the boat. Thicker plywood is also a lot harder to work with, and almost requires a helper for some of the construction. Crowthers have 30+ years of "testing" that show they were designed plenty strong enough, and epoxy/plywood construction has been refined a lot since then. I looked at a full cabin Buc 24 in Florida before I bought mine and I thought it had enough room to make a good "pocket" cruiser for a couple. The cabin is sort of a last building step attachment and can be modified quite a lot with out effecting the rest of the boat. Bruce
     
  3. gpb
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    gpb Junior Member

    Bruce - the K24T should weigh more or less the same of the B24, i.e. 500-550 kg, based on the scarce info available on the web. Here's a picture of the K24T on a trailer:

    [​IMG]

    and while sailing:

    [​IMG]

    What do you think?
     
  4. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    Hi. I got interested in the KT24 a while back. I ordered a study print for it and never got the materials list. After assurances on several occasions it would be sent, it still never turned up. The s/p is (and this is not sour-grapes) pretty appalling in print quality and detail shown.

    I also have a set of Old Sailors B24 plans. I had been hopeing to buy an 2nd hand example and wanted to see how they went together. In the end I chose a different route but I'll come back to that.

    Both of these boats use a variation on the old sharpie 'build the sides and wrap them around the frames method'. The kismet has a single chine flat bottom main hull, of heavier construction, arguably simpler than the double chine hull of the B24. The main hull is wider across the waterline than the B24, which is potentially slower, but allows more interior room. Since you asked:p the following is my 2 bits worth. I'm building another design - but no predjudice.

    Things to like about the KT24:
    Relatively (and there ain't a lot in it) spacious main hull and cabin,
    Simple crossbeam arrangemnt without sea-stays,
    Angled daggerboards in the floats (these things work!!),
    Very basic, simple construction.

    Downsides:
    The main hull is about 8:1 on the waterline thats about the low end of that ratio with regards to a slippery hull,
    IMO the rear beam going through the middle of the cockpit is a really bad feature,
    Based on the study prints I received and the interaction I had with the designer I have doubts about the quality of the plans and the likely support.

    Things to like about the B24:
    Its well proven - probably 100's built,
    Seems to take hull mods and big rigs well
    These things are quick, due to the narrow hulls, for their size. Well sailed, with modern rigs they can be seriously fast.
    Downsides:
    There is no designer support.
    SFA room inside. But its a speedboat man........
    The crossbeam config as designed is weird with short tubes, and wooden plugs. IMO this is what really needs to be re-worked in this design. Having said that the existing set-up certainly seems adequate.

    I think the 'trench-and-pod' configuration used in the above-mentioned designs is a bit out of date (and to be fair they are decades old). But there are alternatives. If you want to build in ply designers such as Kendrick, Horstmann, Marples and others, have designs that may be worth considering.

    I'm in the early stages of building one of these....(see below)......by a relatively unknown NZ designer, Graeme Delaveau. Its 6mm ply over frames and stringers, glassed over, 2 settees and a V berth forward. Bruce # 1.55. There is about 25% more materials in the basic platform than the B24. I'd expect the sailing performance to be similar to the Crowther, better than the KT24, and with a more usable/useful interior than either.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. gpb
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    gpb Junior Member

    Thanks for the replies.
    I have perseverance ;-) and have a material list as well as a study plan for the K24T. I like it a lot. It's mostly 6 mm ply except the bottoms (12 mm ply) and main bulkheads (10 mm).
    However, I personally can't see how the K24T could possibly weigh the same of the B24 since it requires almost twice the plywood of the latter... OK, the B24 beams are hefty 120 mm dia Al tubes (30 kg total?), but the K24T ones are made of two substantial (1" thick) wooden planks each, and based on my calculations should weigh twice as much.
    Anyway: I want a sheet plywood, easy to build, simple and trailerable design.
    Any other suggestions? I also considered Tom Jones' Night Heron which looks pretty nice as well...
     
  6. jmolan
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    jmolan Junior Member

    I cannot find a link or a web page for Graeme Delaveau. Any help would be appreciated.
     
  7. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

  8. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    gpb, having not seen the material list its hard to comment on the relative weights. It certainly seems odd - maybe the designer can clarify?

    The KT24 has a simplicity that is really appealing. I thought about this boat a lot and a bunch of others. I decided rather than build the simplest boat I could find, to build something a little more complex that would suit my needs better (and hopefully for longer). Also I moor out so an easy take-down wasn't a concern.

    I'm scratching to think of any demountable design of this size (24') that is easy to trailer. The Jones Night Heron is a handy looking boat and stays together on the trailer. But its a bit smaller, depending on the type of sailing you have in mind it may be a little tight space wise. Maybe a blown up version would give you what you want?

    I've had a boat once that was unsuitable for my needs. it took me years to get rid of it withou selling at a huge loss and I hardly ever used it. I'd never go there again. If I wanted sheet ply and trailerability I'd build the biggest Kendrick I could afford. if that meant having a smaller boat in a trade off against 1/2 hour launching, I'd go for it. The more user friendly your boat is the more you'll use it and then get value for the time and labour you put into building it.
     
  9. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    different designs

    Jamez, The Delaveau is a really nice looking modern design, I like it a lot:) I think your comments on the Kt24 and Buc24 are very accurate, and even if I were to build/rebuild another Buc24, I would include at least some of the features I see in the Delaveau or similar new designs. I wish the crossbeam design was worked out for trailering- and I completely agree with you on the quick/easy set up. gpb, the crossbeam/waterstays on the buc24 weigh about 60lbs! each!- I weighed mine. They are strong and fool proof:rolleyes: I did a quick estimate of the Kt24's weight at about 1800lbs for the basic boat and rig, about 400lbs heavier than the "average" Buc24. I really question the performance of the Kt24; hard chines/flat bottom shapes only work on a sharpie when you heel it or on a power boat when it planes, and excess weight and drag quickly reduces the speed of a multi down to monohull range. I have a 9' x 24' monohull project hull/deck in fiberglass that can easily be finished at about 1800 lbs including a 500lbs bulb keel. It has a really large volume down below, is very forgiving of overloading, is easy to trailer, and probably would be faster on most points of sail than the kt24. This is my second one so I know about what to expect from it. A small multi has to be really carefully conceived/designed/constructed to realize the "benefits" of a multihull, and the builder/owner has to accept the space and weight compromises that come with the concept. If not, a good modern monohull makes a lot more sense, and is also probably easier and less expensive to build. The mini transats and others show how far you can go in that direction. Bruce
     
  10. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    hi Bruce,

    While a farrier (double hinge) system probably needs to have a boat designed around it I think it would be relatively simple to fit a 'single hinge'type folding mechanism to the Delaveau as on the marples CC26 and the new(ish) Grainger ST7. These don't allow folding on the water but keep the boat together for unfolding on the trailer - allowing tramps etc to be kept in place - and quicker launching than a take-apart.
     
  11. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    folding

    Jamez, You are correct, a single arm folding system is at least possible on most designs. I have built three models of folding "prototypes", a farrier, a single arm, and a firefly style. (plus a simple hinge to raise the floats up) Each one has its own issues, the single arm has to have a lower "carry-through" with strong attach points top and bottom and an area clear for the arm to swing up. My Buc24 doesn't adapt very well to any of them without moving the crossbeams- easy enough to do on a new boat though. What is the lay-up of the crossbeams on the Delaveau that you are building? I had never seen that design on any of the tri sites before, nice choice. The more I study it, the better it looks:) Bruce
     
  12. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Another small plywood tri that is well proven although not well known these days is the 22 ft Bernard Rhodes "Kliss 11" design, Bernard designed and built the original in the late 1960s or early 1970s in England and sailed it solo to New Zealand, he built the MK11 design in Auckland with angled boards in the amas and a wishbone boom and marketed the plans,it has a fairly wide main hull as i recall so should have a reasonable interior,he used to race it with the multihull association in Auckland with success,it was a cute little thing, not modern like that Delaveau but without a doubt the most proven seaworthy small tri design out there. Last i heard Bernard Was living on Waiheke island in Auckland.
    Steve.
     
  13. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    kliss 11?

    Steve, The Kliss is another one I have never seen, do you have any details/pictures? Even if it is out of date, there might be a lot to learn from a design that has covered that much distance. Bruce
     
  14. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    Bernard Rhodes bought kliss 2 back a few years ago. I was able to spend a couple of hours with him looking over it and talking boats etc. Its a great boat but I wanted something more modern. Article and pics attached.

    The beams in the Delaveau are boxes with a top and bottom rail laminated out of 100x20, reinforced where necessary, then boxed with 9mm ply and glassed. The front beam has a fairing. They are one piece and supported by a 6mm x 50mm stainless flat bar strap from near the end of the beam to the bottom of the hull step. There are 3 options for the rear beam as shown in the drawing. The example in the pic has slightly shorter floats and the rear crossbeam behind the cabin bulkhead. I'll upload some more pics soon.
     

    Attached Files:


  15. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Jamez, thank you for posting that article on Kliss, it is a very impressive little boat, i cant think of any modern tri that small capable of worldwide cruising.
    Steve.
     
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