K-19 just bought plans

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by gotthebug, Apr 4, 2004.

  1. gotthebug
    Joined: Apr 2004
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    gotthebug New Member

    just bought plans for K-19 by Northwest Marine Design, has anybody built this boat, i have no experience with cedar strip or boatbuilding although i am a joiner by trade.I am in need of advice to say the least.
     
  2. mlv
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Location: cincinnati, OH

    mlv Junior Member

    advice for building K-19

    I'm in the process of building a K-19 also.

    I would recommend going to http://www.bearmountainboats.com/ and buying Ted Moores books Canoe Craft and Kayak Craft. The procedure for the K-19 is basically the same as for a canoe or kayak. You just need a larger, stronger strongback.

    I've built 2 canoes and 3 kayaks following Moores books. He has the best directions for handling epoxy and fiberglass that I've seen anywhere. The first boat was a Freedom 17 9 from bear mountain boats. I built it with my dad (a retired carpenter). We used Canoe Craft as our guide and things went really well.

    Good Luck,

    MLV
     
  3. bjl_sailor
    Joined: May 2004
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    bjl_sailor Junior Member

    K-19 in progress hull to be turned shortly.

    Hi:

    I've been working on my k-19 since August. The hull is nearly ready for turning. A nasty cold spell here in NEW england has shut down my epoxy work for a bit so I am impatient to get her coated, finished and turned. (I've posted some in progress picts previously with more film to be developed and scanned)

    I'm using 1/2" thick bead and cove western red cedar planking. Compared to my 12' Compumarine Classic dinghy with a wine glass transom, the planking was very easy with little multi -twist hard to fit planks to lay. I've started the fir lifts for both the dagger board and rudder.

    I'm determined to finish the hull clear and it looks good so far (not perfect but good)... I also want a little different deck finish. Plans call for 2 1/4" layers of okoume for decking with 5.8 OZ cloth over that. I'm planning to do a single layer of 1.4" ply over the framing and then lay a series of 3/16" thick by 2.5" wide meranti plancks down in a bed of epoxy tinted cream color between measured spaces.

    The other thing I am not delighted by is the profile of the cockpit bulkheads. You'll notice that it is a rather 'sharp' corner were the deck and bulkeads meet. I'd like to "round" out this profile i.e. more like a 420's curving cockpit 'tubes'...

    Another thing, check your plans. Gondola sent me a set of plans with a duplicate sheet and one page of the plans missing -- with bulkhead profiles. After I wrote him over it he was rather pissy and informed me I can'easily' make a template in lieu of the missing drawing sheet....

    Whatever. I like the design but I wouldn't expect alot of 'support' from Mr. Gonodola.... Please let me know how it goes!

    cheers bjl
     
  4. mlv
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Location: cincinnati, OH

    mlv Junior Member

    I got this reply from Gondola on that subject:

    >My daughter asked about doing the deck and cockpit in glass sheathed strip
    and radiusing >some of the corners. (we've built several strip kakaks and
    canoes)Would this be a >problem? What glass cloth weight and strip
    thickness would you recommend if we were to >do this.

    If you want that look I would recommend putting down a 1/4" Okoume ply
    underlayment followed by 1/4" strips. The deck provides a lot of the
    transverse stiffness that the boat needs to resist the rig forces. You could
    probably can go without the underlayment and just use full thickness strips
    but I'd feel a bit better if it was there. Glass both sides and avoid using
    heavy wood types for the strips if you can. The boat is already gaining
    weight because of the hull material so you need to watch what you do here
    because it can all add up faster then you think. Try and keep the dry deck
    weight to as close to 1.2 lbs per sq. ft. as you can.

    Cheers,

    A C Gondola, N.A.
    Northwest Marine Design
     
  5. bjl_sailor
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    bjl_sailor Junior Member

    Interesting. I think both aesthetically and also comfort wise. ' Rounding' that cockpit side edge is going to be an important modification. I mean when you are hiking that hard edge is going to dig in.... My plan is to build the forward 3 bulkeads as per plan and then set up some 1/4" cheap luan ply mock up bulkheads and mess with the profile that way. I'm also going to splurge and buy a teak and hollly veneered plywood cockpit sole. All the same I am fully sensitive to extra weight and everythings been built to spec so far with 5.8 oz

    That and the the 1/8"-3/16" meranti planked decks, natural hull. I can remember with great awe and fondness of two clear finished, mahog veneered Thistles that raced in our local one of a kind handicap fleet in the late '60's when I was a kid.... That's the kind of "woody high perf" that I am going for...

    No work this weekend -- weather is in the teens 30 mph wind and no chance I could get my uninsulated metal building shop up to resin curing temp...
     
  6. bjl_sailor
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    bjl_sailor Junior Member

    K-19 Construction Photos

    Hi folks:

    I ahd posted a few images of this project earlier in another thread but thought I'd place it in this one to help give the the folks with plans a little idea of what's ahead.

    One is of the boat as I am close up the planking. Admitted a poor quality photo ( you shouldn't put unporcessed rolls of film through the wash I've learned). You can clearly see what is called ( I think the hog or internal keel).

    Other shots of the boat after fairing. I intentionally attached one of the area I ahd problems with tearout and subsequent filling that shows preety bad. Oh well more carefull next time. The problem was the nails would be comming out cleanly and then tear out the wood. others I was just clumsy or impatient and nicked the wood more than I wanted to. If I finished clear no worries of course...
     

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  7. mlv
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    mlv Junior Member

    Looks good. What strip width did you use?

    I've just gotten started planking. So far, so good.
     

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  8. bjl_sailor
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    bjl_sailor Junior Member

    Mine were 3/4" wide by 1/2" bead and cove. It looks like your strips are quite a lot wider. You'll be narrowing them to make the bilge turn I suspect? Horrible weather, ahven't been able to work with epoxy for nearly 3 weeks...
     
  9. bjl_sailor
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    bjl_sailor Junior Member

    Question re: hull turning.

    I've been looking at my hull for some time wondering about the turning process. Even with the hull sheathed on the outside the gunwales look pretty flexy/floppy until the boat is turned and the inner gnwale is laminated in. The plan calls for something like 3/8" thinck x 1 1/4" luan lamination and that's it plus the decking system.

    I'm worried while turning the boat the whole hull shape may be distorted. I've been kicking around the idea of adding a permanent "outerwale" to outside prior to turning. besides altering the hull deck joint it also adds more pounds - something the designer admonishes you not to do.

    Any thoughts?
     
  10. mlv
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    mlv Junior Member

    I'm inclined to try to keep the weight down. Wood strip - glass epoxy construction is really strong. It's tempting to add structure and overbuild, but you really don't need it.

    I don't think you need to worry about the hull shape being distorted before you glass the inside. Even if the hull is pretty floppy, I think you only need to have it close to final shape when you glass the inside. The sheer clamp will stiffen it up some, but it will still be pretty floppy until the bulkheads go in. If it shifts a little, you should still be able to realign it when the bulkheads are installed. I think the hull to deck joint should be fine as drawn. Since they meet at ~ 90 deg, they should each act as a stiffener to the other. (at least it works that way on the kayaks).

    I've been thinking about the turning process too, but I still have some time before I have to seriously worry about it.

    I have figured out that I'll need help. The hull should weigh ~ 160 lb when it's turning time. Based on how floppy the canoes were before the inside was glassed, I think you're right about it being floppy. I think the main thing is to get it over without concentrated loads on an unsupported section. If you leave some molds installed, it will probably be pushing 200 lb. I have it in my garage, so I may build an A frame and use a chainfall or a come along. (or get my 6'4" 300 lb brother to visit)

    I saw a idea in a book that I think I might try. While the boat is still inverted on the mold, I plan to build the cradle on top of the inverted boat. That way the hull is still supported by the mold and I won't distort it with the cradle. Then I can remove the cradle, flip the hull and align it on the cradle.

    I plan to leave a couple of molds in place - screwed at the gunnels at least. Probably the #11 and the #7, maybe one more forward. (the #11 can be screwed pretty securely, since most of the hull gets trimmed short of it. I'll probably screw through the glassed topsides to the #7 mold and do the topsides painting after I turn the hull. I plan to screw some 2x4 to the molds that I leave in place and make a frame (kind of like a partition, the 2x4s on the molds as studs and some plates screwed to the ends of them) to take the load during turning. I'll support the frame on saw horses and then remove the rest of the mold and strongback from under the boat. Then I'll lower one side to the floor and raise the other side with the chain fall while sliding the lower side across the floor under it. When it is half over, I can lower it with the chain fall.

    With a couple of molds in place, I should be able to flip it without breaking anything. With a cradle that fits the hull well between the molds that I leave in place, I should be able to align the hull until the two molds are level and the hull should be true. Then I plan to use two or three spreaders at the gunwhale to keep the hull the right width while I install the sheer clamps and glass the inside.

    On the strip kayaks that I built the hulls were really floppy and twisted quite a bit, even after glassing the inside. Once I installed the decks with the sheer clamps attached, everything aligned well.

    have fun,

    mlv
     
  11. bjl_sailor
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    bjl_sailor Junior Member

    Yes, I like your idea of building a supporting cradle while the hull is inverted. Have seen that on larger hulls -- I used 5/8" particle board for molds -- very very heavy but cheap and dimensionally stable. I too like the idea of retaining several molds during turning. I have metal joists above, two 2 ton come alongs and a bunch of former 34' 1/2" halyards and webbing -- also ten guys at the ready for a thirty pack if need be. The turning is not so much the worry but the percieved threat of distorting the hull.

    BTW I have already trimmed my transom back ( roughly from the offsets leaving a good 1/8" to clean up and will also route and radius over the dagger board slot. I Thought it would be easier to layout and cut these before turning. Esp the dagger board slot. I'm going 5/16" radius the slot all around and impregnate the whole cross section with epoxy. I don't need a straight sharp edge there for planing purposes do I?

    My interior glass sheathing won't be glass. In naive fervor I went out and bought $26.oo per running yard kevlar/carbn fiber composote fabric. -- I figure it would make a super strong rigid hull -- but have since seen postings that it is not only overkill but also won't greatly increase strength unless used on both sides of the coring material. Oh well a chance to try out an expensive high tech material in an area where "t's application learning curve" won't be seen. I understand both carbon and kevlar are difficult to properly wet out without vacuum bagging...

    Oh another thing! before you buy your doug fir for the dager board and rudder sections. There was an excellant posting about doing them in foam and relying on a carbon skin to provide most struture. If I wasn't 3/4 through cutting lifts I would hove tride that and will probally end up making another set of foils that way -- eventually.

    Allright enough for now. Rather cool there are now three of us building or with plans for the same boat. The k-19 was my answer to the fact i couldn't find plans to cold mold a thistle sailboat. Also I really enjoy strip building the hulls. For me, to see the gorgeous sweet shape emerge slowly out of the skelton of plywood is infinitely enjoyable. And the smell of western red cedar being faired with a long board is far better than poleyester resin fumes from a C-Flex boat....

    I
     
  12. mlv
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    mlv Junior Member

    Progress on K-19

    I set up the mold the first week of January and have been working a little each night and on the weekend. I'm hoping for a launch late this summer. How about you?

    I also cut the hole for the daggerboard already. When the planking has covered it, I plan to rout a radius on it also - probably 1/4 in. I plan to wrap the outside glass sheathing over the radius inside of the dagger board hole when I glass the outside. I cut the hole ~ 1/16" oversize. I plan to make a plug the right size out of scrap wood, cover it with plastic film packing tape, and put it in position while the epoxy is still soft. Then when I flip the hull, I plan to use the plug to align the daggerboard well to the hole when I install it.

    How did you lay out the transom trim? I had thought of cutting a couple of triangles at the right angle and mounting the station 11 mold to the station 10 mold at the right position and angle. The station 11 mold is smaller than the transom so it will be undersized, but I thought I could manage to follow the surface close enough with a hand saw.

    I had already cut the lifts for the daggerboard and rudder. I used redwood, a little expensive but clear and easy to work. I used all thread to bolt the lifts together and plan to cut it off recessed with a dremel and leave it in place for additional tensile strength. I am planning on using the glass schedule specified for the rudder on the daggerboard as well. I'm 6'6" and 265 lb and if (or should I say when?) I turtle it, I don't want to break the daggerboard trying to right the boat.

    Have fun,

    mlv
     

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  13. Billy Bones
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    Billy Bones Junior Member

    Great progress gentlemen. It's nice to see some of these being built. I've had plans for the K19 for about 5 years now.

    Slightly OT: has anyone contemplated/built/sailed the K23? I've always wondered about the larger model but no one has given it a try that I've heard.
     
  14. mlv
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    mlv Junior Member

    I thought about it, but the water I have available is too thin. It looks like a decent boat.

    mlv
     

  15. bjl_sailor
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    bjl_sailor Junior Member

    Good ideas about the dagger board cutout. I was originally planing on cutting it when turned but than began thinking also of radiusing the opening and now that she is still on her back I measured it out and cut it open and radiused it as you've done 5/16" R . Merely epoxied it, now I worry I should have also sheathed it...

    I used doug fir for my dagger board lifts and have exactly the same thoughts of keeping the 1/2 threaded rod in the board as I too am a bit heavy for a dinghy sailor -- 6'1" 230. I have bought a large amount of hybrid carbon fiber / kevlar 5.8 oz cloth and will use that in two laminations as careful as can be and then a 'sand it smooth layer' of S glass. Plans call for it to be 'neutrally' bouyant with something like 32 lbs of lead. The greater part of 2 1/2 X 48" steel threaded rods should weigh about what?...and then How about a DB 1 extra lift of lead for the tip made with a plaster of paris mold thats nicely rounded. An extra 1 5/8" bit of foil that will weigh 10-15 lbs...


    I am currently HLVP spraying my hull after enormous effort wet sanding with 220 grit the 4 coats of epoxy I put over my 5.8 oz S glass. (this also entailed a 30 pack) Boasting a bit, it's pretty damn handsome. and now 15 coats of polyurethane 'spar varnish' -- Ok extraneous coats as I had/have a learning curve with new spray equipment to master. Then more 320 grit wet sanding until I can't stand it any more.... I've been saying I am ready to turn for months now... shooting for a late June launch... Planking was finished the week before Thanksgiving.-- Holidays delay and the Cold weather and fb lamination/sanding hell has been my existence since then.

    For the transom. I marked off all the waterlines shown on the plans and then measured out level all the offsets he has on the profile plan from the profile in -- 5 points I think -- not enough to use a flexible batten and get a fair curve. -- So I cut big and will keep the two most aft stations in the boat until she's turned and I can make a pattern of heavy card stock --- I'll put the transom in temporarily fastened, make sure it is equidistant at both sheers against the last mold station and fillet it in and then take the belt sander to knock off the 'extra' hull left outside-- sound reasonable do you think?

    I don't like the rudder box detail. Thinking it just isn't 'stonka' enough -- I know how much weather helm can be generated when you are blasting around over sailed, enjoying the ride and throwing your weight out to make up for a lack of caution.... Have you thought of a trapeze? The boat seems to cry for it...

    Last thing of concern -- for now. I really want to curve the inside cockpit lip. The cautions about weight build up and also changing an 'as drawn design detail' concern me. But that inner deck lip as drawn is too harsh. It will hurt when hiking and it looks boxy. Why bust your butt strip planking a lovely hull form and then have nasty hard 'plywood boat' hard edges where you'll be seating/leaning out? Does the designer sail? Next time I build I will make a 1/8" scale model and look at these things in real time in the real world...

    Thoughts: perhaps a 3" radius ease over. And then 4 layers of 1/8" Okuoume encourged by hot wet towels to conform extending 3" inches either side of the radius then but joined against the deck. Epoxy putty on the inner cockpit wall helps 'ease the lower lip into the 1/4" Okoume side panels.... Crap more sanding...
     
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