Just starting out

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by gclay9999, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. gclay9999
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Orillia, Ontario, Canada

    gclay9999 Junior Member

    Hey folks,

    I'm getting ready to build my first daysailer. A Hartley 14, including cuddy. I'm going to use okume on the hull and teak and rubber decking inside. now I may be a dummy but when I coat the decking won't I lose the non slip factor. Do I have to glass the insides or is that overkill? I'd also like to have a nice looking deck and think that glassing would distort or obstruct the natural look. Like I said I'm a dummy when it comes to this stuff. The wife just tells me to paint it and forget it. This will be the first of 3 boats I plan to build, one for each kid.


    Any and all help is appreciated.
    Gerald
     
  2. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 3,731
    Likes: 121, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1404
    Location: maine

    alan white Senior Member

    You needn't glass anything inside or out except at the joints unless for abrasion resistance, and any transparant finish is going to be ridiculously hard to do.
    If you want non-skid use an abbrasive additive such as sand or walnut shells. Add the non-skid to a painted surface. Attempting the clear finish with a non-skid is not anything you want to try, believe me.
    A plywood veneered with teak should not be treated like solid teak. Only solid teak could be left unfinished, and hence have good footing. Any plywood product should be coated with vanish or paint, preferably over an epoxy undercoat.
     
  3. JLIMA
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 123
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 130
    Location: New Bedford Ma.

    JLIMA crazed throttleman

    First about the decks plain wood looks good only for a little before turning grey and is a maintenance pain, I use plywood and glass it, finished off with primer then paint with some coarse sand sprinkled on top while wet, then another coat of paint, cheap nonskid deck, personally I would never just use paint...way to slippery when wet, and it WILL get wet. So far as the hull I only glass the outside and bed everything else in tar, but i don't see that it would hurt to glass the inside as well, if you were talking about glassing inside the cuddy don't there isn't anything to gain from it. The whole loosing the non skid factor in the for the decks I would say don't work about it, if it's in the cuddy, on the exterior decks, well like i said paint, drop sand and paint, gives a nice kinda finish if you do it right. Is there any special reason for the teak because personally I find it just plain too expensive and use local woods for me that usually means white pine. Saves alot of money and does not hurt the boat structurally. I am however sure that some of what I said will be sent to the shooting gallery its how I've always done things, and it's always worked for me. One last thing, I've never planked a hull in the traditional sense, I've only ever used plywood, I also find MDO to make very nice looking bulkheads for the inside of cabins, it was made for sign painters and is weather proof and it's paper like coated surface produces an exceptionally nice looking finish, just figured that would be something to consider.
     
  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 472, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Don't use sand as a texture, it's hell to pay when you have to redo it and everything has to be redone eventually. Use ground up rubber, polyurethane or other additive. Paint stores sell texture additive and it works much better then sand. Another great non-skid coating is truck bed liner. It sticks like crazy and isn't harmed in the marine environment.

    The plywood hull on your little sailor should be taped on it's seams, just to make it water tight. Unfortunately, plywood can be easily damaged from normal bumps and abrasions in use. To protect from this, the outside and high traffic areas inside the boat would be much better protected with a thin cloth sheathing. This adds to the cost and difficulty of the build, but it increases the durability.

    Forget about lots of natural finishes (varnish) unless you're just into pain. Clear finishes on anything that will see plenty of sunlight is the hardest finish of all to keep looking good. Now, a little bit of varnish here and there isn't a bad thing, maybe the tiller, coming cap, cabin trim, etc. Don't go crazy, you'll just want to kill yourself after a while if you have a lot of varnish work.

    I wouldn't recommend MDO for anything other then cabinet faces and partitions. The material isn't of reliable quality anymore for much more.
     
  5. gclay9999
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Orillia, Ontario, Canada

    gclay9999 Junior Member

    Ok so I just glass the seams and paint the rest? How would I prevent rot, just make sure to wipe down everything after each trip? The info that came with my plans say to use AB ext plywood, I was just going to use the others for durability. If I'm not going for clear, then ab would be ok. On another note, the plans didn't come with outlines for gussets, are they just cut from scrap?

    Thanks for the help guys.

    Gerald
     
  6. JLIMA
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 123
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 130
    Location: New Bedford Ma.

    JLIMA crazed throttleman

    For my gussets i use 1/2" ply
     
  7. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 3,731
    Likes: 121, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1404
    Location: maine

    alan white Senior Member

    AB exterior plywood is usually fir, 5 ply, and inner plies have knot holes and cavities where water can collect and cause rot.
    For this reason, more care must be taken to seal the outside of the hull and also to avoid water collecting in the bilge when the boat is stored between uses. Personally, I feel there's no savings with AB if you have to go to greater lengths to protect it with epoxy. It may be $50.00 more per sheet, but that's not a lot if you want a long-lasting and attractive, low-maintainance boat. I suppose you could say its a difference of a fifteen year boat and a thirty year boat.
    PAR and I both suggested only taping the seams AND where some protection against abrasion is needed (the whole bottom up past the chines a couple of inches).
    Glass isn't what's sealing out the moisture. Epoxy is doing that. You still ought to epoxy a few coats inside and outside the hull.
    This is especially important where you are using AB plywood, which is fir as sold in the USA, because fir of all woods has a problematic grain. It is variagated hard and soft (try your thumbnail, you'll find both soft and hard layers appearing on the surface. Epoxy can stabilize the surface, hardening the soft areas, which would otherwise expand and contract relative to the hard areas, resulting in a wavy appearance. Paint alone won't suffice to prevent the waviness from appearing very soon after the boat has been launched.
    Cloth serves not only to maintain a waterproof membrane but also to help stiffen the soft pulpy grain, adding to the effectiveness of the epoxy.
    It's for this reason that I usually epoxy only the unseen backside of fir bulkheads for waterproofness and moderate smoothness, but I also use a light cloth where I want a really flat looking panel, such as the top of a seat.
    Functionally, no cloth is needed inside the boat except at the seams. How much tape depends upon the designer's specifications. The bigger the boat, the more and thicker and wider the glass layers.
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 472, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If using Douglas fir plywood (most exterior grades are) you pretty much have to apply a 'glass sheathing to prevent it from checking. An epoxy coating alone will not prevent Douglas fir from checking. In fact, sometimes it'll check under the sheathing, but for the most part to protect this type of plywood you should 'glass all sides.

    Rot can be prevented by keeping the boat clean, dry and well ventilated. Access to all areas within the boat and no areas where moisture can collect. If you keep it out of direct sunlight as well, it can last generations. Rot prevention is about the level of care more then anything else, assuming the boat can be "opened up" to permit ventilation.
     
  9. gclay9999
    Joined: Nov 2009
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Orillia, Ontario, Canada

    gclay9999 Junior Member

    Ok, seeing as how it's only $500 more for marine grade I'll take that route. So I just tape the seams and epoxy the bottom. I just need to get it straight in my head, that's why I rephrase everything. I'll be painting everything so no epoxy or glass is needed inside right. I may sound like a ******* but the only thing I've ever built is a basement.
     

  10. lewisboats
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 2,329
    Likes: 126, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1603
    Location: Iowa

    lewisboats Obsessed Member

    You can really not go wrong with glassing the inside with a light cloth(2-3 oz)...(the cloth is the binder and structural component of any epoxy sealant application)...or the outside with a heavier cloth (6-8 oz) to help with abrasion resistance. The cost/aggravation ratio is a no brainer. Epoxy seals the wood but cloth binds the epoxy properly and prevents checking of inferior woods. I would cloth the interior above the projected bilge line to be safe and prudent and twice the height on the outside...or above the exposed chine...whichever is higher. You will still get checking of fir ply above the glassed line but that will vary with storage and exposure of the ply to the Sun and the environment.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.